Comments for V10 Copy - Again ** now with Poll ** at http://www.surfski.info , comment 0 to 20 out of 100 comments http://www.surfski.info Fri, 04 Jul 2008 15:50:07 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.2 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_907 We'll do a follow up article with the results of the poll questions and the feedback that we had from the manufacturers who responded to our questionnaire. Stay tuned. - Rob Mousley Tue, 05 Jun 2007 16:04:50 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_905 OK, we feel that 100 comments are enough on any one topic. This article is now closed for comments. Thanks to all who took the trouble. (Of course we'd welcome any further suggestions/comments on info@surfski.info, rob@surfski.info or alain@surfski.info!) - Rob Mousley Tue, 05 Jun 2007 15:56:54 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_902 Just keeping this thread rolling along to 100 ha ha In the bicycle/tennis racquet sports goods etc world Chinese manufacturing has lowered the retail prices AND increased the availability of most products . Lats ps Hey Tutty why was the Byron race scheduled the day before Paul's one ? Us old guys will have to choose one , not fit enough to back up these days :'( - Lats Tue, 05 Jun 2007 13:27:22 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_897 I only know that Oscar made custom foam skis, he never had a factory. He only started producing skis at Epic. Other SA manufacturers might have made them but not him. He did use an Australian spec ski MADE IN AUSTRALIA for his Molokai win in 1995. - Bevan Manson Tue, 05 Jun 2007 06:23:09 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_887 I was at Oscar's talk at Manly SLSA last year and I remember him stating that they took a Hayden, Burton and SPectrum back to SA to reproduce as well. Funny that? - Dan H Tue, 05 Jun 2007 00:36:11 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_883 In fact my computer comes from Taiwan... wich is a real democratic country. And I don't think you can so easily leave politics out of your thoughts... Of course there are no children working for Epic. But the situation in that country would make me think twice before investing money there. And it does make me think twice before buying something. - Colombani Mon, 04 Jun 2007 11:21:28 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_881 Hey Michael >> alittle biased in relation to South African ski's and paddlers We're working on that - eg the profiles on Ash & Dean before Molokai. We are very keen to promote/support Oz events - we currently have more Australian readers on the site than South Africans. I've also written to Dolphin & Hayden to try to get info on their skis, get them to have reviews done on their skis. Any other Oz manufacturers, please, we'd love to give exposure. Any suggestions on who to contact/how to promote Aussie paddlers & equipment (we seem to have done a brilliant job of the XLR8 :)) would be most welcome. Earlier in the year we had some great photos of spec skis going out through surf at your Iron Man competitions - and very popular viewing they were too. So yep, inevitably we are somewhat SA biased at present, but we're a global site (right now about 25% readership in Oz/NZ, about 22% SA, about 35-40% US and the rest from Norway to Japan) and we're working on globalising the content. Cheers Rob - Rob Mousley Mon, 04 Jun 2007 11:12:22 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_880 I know next to nothing about what happens in China but I do know that probably 30% of everything I buy is manufactured there (including, probably, the computer that you wrote that comment on!) I believe things are changing - because of pressure groups comprising people like you. So I laud your comments, in that we all need to think about such issues, but I'm not sure that things are still as bad as you say. Certainly the stories that I've heard from people visiting China paint a different picture. - Rob Mousley Mon, 04 Jun 2007 11:03:12 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_879 Reading all the comments have made me stop and think that what comes around is forgotten by next week. let me tell you a little story. A former Czech national team canoe member, studied hard in Fluid Dynamic's recieved his degree and persued his dream of making kayaks. Upon realizing what was needed to persue the ultimate shape he realised he need the aid of computers. so this little Czech went back to studies, became educated in computer programming and several years later had the first known ski to be designed by computer (not gloating the fact by this time he was an australian Citizen)... some years passed and this happy little Czech/Australian was producing more ski's in Australia than most other ski builders. The competitors using this craft were Guy Leech and Trevor Hendy to mention a couple........ Lets go forward some years...to Oscar's Talk at Manly Life Saving last year (2006). After giving a great speech on his life history of paddling. The big 'O'said that in the 90's when out here, they took a Burton, hayden and spectrum back to south Africa to be repoduced. What did australia ski builder's think about this??? Nothing much really. This is somewhat a comparison to what may be happening now. Knowing the happy Czech/Australian quite well he was pleased that his ski designed was being used by others (with no royalties). When viewing the Stealth Performance Product by Brett Challenor at the recent world surf champs his product was identical to the spectrum. The quality in the one I saw was great. Not one australian'sn the beach kicked up a stink. As for the people who say let's ban them those using copied ski's....get real. And using Dean Gardner's quote.... that was from years ago. was it in relation to this current issue. Rob, your sight is great...alittle biased in relation to South African ski's and paddlers. If world cup ski races and molokai did not interfere with our domestic surf life saving season/international kayak season many more aussies would be competing. I would put my $$$ on Clint Robinson any day. And as for the debate on who is the Molokai King.... Dean Gardner won the event in every condition known. Taking on all paddlers when the event was well known. Five out of Oscar's 11 or so wins was when nobody decent was competing and the event was still relativly new...just some thought. Sorry about my spelling..... And final word's - instead of whinging guy's get out there on the water and train hard because it isnt the ski that paddle's itself. - Michael A Mon, 04 Jun 2007 10:47:52 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_878 GUYS LETS LEAVE THE POLITICS OF CHINA OUT OF IT.I FOR ONE HAVE BEEN TRAVELING TO CHINA FOR THE LAST 15 YEARS ON AN AVERAGE OF 4/5 TIMES A YEAR TO ALL AREAS FROM THOSE CLOSE TO HONG KONG AND TO THE REMOTEST AREAS IN THE NORTH NEAR THE RUSSIAN BORDER AND HAVE YET TO SEE ANY CHILD LABOUR.THE CHINA YOU ARE REFFERRING ABOUT EXISTED 15 YEARS AGO.LETS LEAVE THIS PART OUT.I HAVE BEEN TO THE EPIC FACTORY AND CAN CONFIRM THERE ARE NO CHILDREN RUNNING AROUND. WHAT I DO QUESTION IS THAT EPIC MOVED TO CHINA SUPPOSEDLY FOR VQUALITY REASONS,THE MAKE ACCORDING TO EPIC WAS THE SAME PRICE???I QUESTION THIS.READING THE UMPTEEN COMPLAINTS BEFORE REFERRING TO LEAKING AND BREAKING BOATS WOULD BE A BIG WORRY IF I WAS THE OWNER OF EPIC. ROB LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING WHAT THE MANUFACTURERS HAVE TO SAY AS A FEW SKELETONS ARE BOUND TO FALL OUT THE CUBOARD AS TO WHO HAS KNOCKED WHOM OFF.CANT WAIT FOR THIS MOVIE. - PARKSY Mon, 04 Jun 2007 09:52:38 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_877 First I want to say that copying is not acceptable. If you have created something you have the right to get benefit from your creation. Having said that, I have a big problem with defending Epic. They build their surskis in China just to make more money than they would make if their factory was in SA. China is a country where civil rights are next to nothing. Children can work in a factory 6 days a week, 10 hours a day. It's legal and that's the reason why so many western companies goes to China. The real quetion is : When you buy a chinese manufactured surfski, aren't you supporting the Chinese Government's Policy ? I live in Tahiti and i intented to buy an Epic Paddle. I paddled one once, borrowed from a friend. I changed my mind since I heard they were made in China. Ethic is not just a word. Everyone can make choices an act accordingly to them. Buying a XLR8 is a shame. Buying a V10 is just the same to me. I own a Fenn carbon XT and I just bought a Mako06, even though I wanted an Epic V10. P.S. I have a lot of respect for Oscar Chalupsky as an athlete. I am not sure that I can respect him as a businessman. - Colombani Mon, 04 Jun 2007 04:43:21 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_859 Sorry Bevan, I don't buy the $200,000 R&D, given my Icon the Fenn and the Epic have been going through progressive refinement. Some rough numbers, Labour PRC $3 /hr x 40hrs = $120, Aus $40/hr x 40 = $1,600 material $600 say, so one boat costs $720 and the other $2,200 allow for shipping $400 each for Epic, the Epic should be $1,080 cheaper in Aus, yet they are $800 more, so $1,880 margin for agents and Epic R&D seems pretty high - is it really R&D or profit margin??? - aspen ski school Sat, 02 Jun 2007 12:19:55 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_858 Check this.... www.kiff.com.au AWESOME!! - Dudley Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:52:09 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_857 In the mean time, can we all get back to, reality.... C'mon Guys!! Support your local ski series. Gold Coast Winter and Currumbin Surf Ski Series Rocks!!!! - Dudley Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:50:14 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_856 There are good reasons why I wouldn't advise either Epic or XLR8 to respond to these comments online. Instead, both have been invited to comment formally offline (along with all the other manufacturers that I could find). Some of the manufacturers have asked for more time to respond. We've also done some more research on exactly what protection is available for manufacturers like this both in Australia & the US. I'll do a follow up report in the next week or two once the guys have had time to respond. I still live in hope that the manufacturers might be persuaded to come up with some form of "code of conduct" so that issues like this don't arise. - Rob Mousley Fri, 01 Jun 2007 12:34:17 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_855 FOR MY SINS I HAVE 6 EPICS WHY BECAUSE THEY ALL LEAK AND BREAK VERY EASILY.GRANTED 4 WERE MADE IN SA BEFORE EPIC MOVED THERE PRODUCTION TO CHINA.THE 5TH IS AN ULTRA LIGHT SKI FROM CHINA THAT HAS NOT BEEN IN THE WATER YET.BASED ON THE PREVIOUS COMMENTS I WOULD BE VERY WORRIED ABOUT PUTTING IT IN THE WATER OFF DURBAN. THE 6TH IS A CARBON VUCUUM BOAT FROM KAYAK CENTRE WEIGHING JUST UNDER 13 KGS STRONG STIFF AND COSTING AROUND $2000.00.A GREAT BOAT THAT I WOULD CONFIDENTLY TAKE IN THE BIGGEST DOWN WIND CONDITIONS. MY QUESTION IS WHY EPIC HAVE NOT COME ONLINE AND TRY TO OFFER ANY EXPLANATIONS TO ALL THESE LAEKING FAULTY SKI,S.BELIEVE ME IF IT WAS MY BRAND I WOULD BE DEFENDING IT FOR ALL THAT IT WAS WORTH.COME EPIC DEFEND YOURSELVES - PARKSY Fri, 01 Jun 2007 11:59:55 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_854 $5,500.00 for a chinese ski & $3,300.00 for a hand made carbon ski of my own colour choice,guess which one i will buy.now for my paddle - yeah baby Fri, 01 Jun 2007 09:37:38 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_853 Pity we have to re-visit this topic. The honorable thing would be to have negotiated a licence - just like Brian's Kayak Centre did for V10 and previously for Burton Molokai ( they added their own touches and produced a better made ski than the original but still paid royalties to Burton). Patent protection doesn't occur unless you are a huge multinational company with huge pockets. - philippb Fri, 01 Jun 2007 08:32:26 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_852 Then you will see fair competition - Bevan Manson Fri, 01 Jun 2007 06:29:00 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/419/147/#pc_851 Epic has had to pay $200 000 DD has had to pay nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!! divide $US200 000 into DD's 100 V10 Flops and then you will see that his V10 Flop would cost $US 2000 got figure!!!! This is what you call economics - Bevan Manson Fri, 01 Jun 2007 06:26:04 +0100