Comments for ** Durban World Cup Update ** at http://www.surfski.info , comment 0 to 20 out of 26 comments http://www.surfski.info Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:05:04 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.2 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2525 I don't believe the ICF path is best for the sport, especially considering the way it has already progressed without them. From a SA perspective, the main advantage of belonging to the ICF is eventually competing in the Olympics so that those paddlers can get funding from SASCOC. Then there is also racing in big international regattas and World Championships but that gives nothing back to the athletes except exposure and leverage for sponsorship. Surfski needs to forge its own path, run by paddlers primarily who know all the variables. If it's bought into by the actual paddlers taking part then there's no more credible basis for competition. It seems that the athletes are generally behind the idea as Ian said (who is regularly a top 5 paddler in KZN by the way Greg P, behind Hank, Oscar et al), so at the moment it seems it all hinges on who can 'sell' the idea for the most to a title sponsor and take it to the next level. There is huge scope for companies other than Epic and Fenn, and they just need an insight into the lifestyle the sport represents to realise that. The beauty about the surfing model that Jamii spoke about is the very fact that it's run by surfers. So they determine where it goes and have a direct stake in it. It seems a bit underground than going along the official ICF lines, but has much more potential that way in my opinion. I can almost see it coming to a head one day where the ICF will want a controlling slice and that's going to be the really interesting point. - Marc Cloete Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:46:47 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2519 All I was suggesting is the sport needs some form of direction. Maybe we need a paddlers association or something like that where issues can be voted upon. Because if we go down the ICF path the sport will be taken out of the paddlers hands and we all know what dealing with officals who are not paddlers is like. the sport needs goals set and a plan to achieve them, much the same as an athlete or business would do. Races like Molokia will have big challenges ahead if the numbers keep going up, I cant see 300 escort boats following the field! I dont wont to see restrictions or specs on ski design, but basic safty such as positive flotation in the ski is important. Local rules regarding PFD's should apply. there are a dozen other issues that need to be debated. I think we all agree this site has done a tremendous amount to grow the sport, but if we just hope things are going to work out. We are kidding ourselves - Macca Wed, 18 Jun 2008 03:31:07 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2518 To Rob & Alain Firstly you have set up not only a wondeful web site veiwed by people all over the world but it is also set a wonderful standard for web based sports sites. Like most people I not only paddle a ski but a racing kayak (sladecraft Flash for non Aussies ) and a waveski ,I must be paddling mad, and if I check on the Net for sites associated with these sports there is Surfski.info first and daylight second. You have done a very impressive job , considering that this is done part time and for the love of the sport, so to all those guys putting their points of veiw across about the Surfski World Championship may I suggest they try doing it part time with a job and family in tow, I agree it may not be perfect but most things are not when they begin but the major factor in whether it will be succesful or not is time and the amount of people interested and by the amount I have read on this topic lately the interest part has been nailed. Cheers Tom.B - Tom Balaam Wed, 18 Jun 2008 02:54:39 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2516 Hey Dave, It's good to get some debate on what the best direction is for the sport, and to take on board both positive and negative experiences of different disciplines. I would agree 100%, it would be terrible to see an event like Molokai restricted to 2 or 3 competitors per nation, but I don't think that would ever happen. Would be restricted to about 15 paddlers at present, with everyone else running looking for long lost grandparents and the possibility of a new passport!! ;D Unfortunately for marathon, it's not cheap to run events and the sponsorship dollars are lower, so running any more than 3 races per season isn't viable. Australian Canoeing went bust off the back of hosting Slalom and Marathon worlds in the one season. And with competitors having to cover a lot of their own costs, the desire to race is less, and around we go in a vicious circle of decline. But marathon races like the Sella prove that you can have top class competition, with thousands of paddlers, and still be governed by normal rules which allow for hard, fair and safe racing. I think that the people involved with ocean racing are on top of things enough to be able to trust organisers in other countries to set up good courses that are suitable for racing. The beauty of ocean racing is that it isn't restricted to a set distance and has to provide portages,so straight away we're ahead of marathon. It's very rare nowadays that guys rock up to a race and complain about the course, which has to be a positive. There's a fantastic vibe around the sport at present, with a lot of excellent people driving development, I don't think there's any fear of the sport repeating the mistakes of other disciplines. Cheers. - Stewart Wed, 18 Jun 2008 02:21:41 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2515 A second factor to be considered is that Marathon is not very spectator friendly. We're hoping to change this through live coverage in the form of commentary, GPS position Tracking and ultimately streaming video. In Durban there will be big screens, music, the bar will be open... Spectators will be participating instead of waiting. 8) - Rob Mousley Wed, 18 Jun 2008 01:54:11 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2514 Stewart I agree with what you say about sprint and funding, so how would Ski paddling be different if it were added to the mix of ICF diciplines or regulated through a seperate "council"? I would hate for ski paddling to become another poorer cousin of Sprint and Slalom. The regulations in MY opinion have restricted Marathon racing. Only 2 world cups and a world championships, the possibility of having an event in Australia (or your country) maybe once every 10 years, a central committee that has to travel to and approve each race course off standard criteria which is funded by all paddlers paying membership fees to affiliated national federations. It's definately not attractive to sponsors, and unfortunately in Australia becoming less and less attractove to paddlers as well. Personally, I like the direction ski racing is going in, allowing manufacturers to innovate with boat design, allowing race organisers to come up with different and exciting race formats and ultimately have a sport which is actually serving the best interest of the paddlers. The rapid growth the sport is experiencing should be allowed to continue unrestrained. My biggest concern would be that one day paddlers would have to qualify, or be selected as one of 2-3 representatives from each country for races like Molokai and people who want to race would be turned away. Again, only my opinion having seen the different sides of the disciplines. - Dave Provan Wed, 18 Jun 2008 01:16:20 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2513 Rob and Alain at surfski.info, the paddling companies have done a great job thus far in creating AWARENESS of the World surfski racing scene. The World Series that was created will work itself out over the years and evolve into something that we all like. Just ask youself if the world scene is better off now or before the creation of the "imperfect" World Series? We all know that most of the top paddlers are either South African or Australian, but to have most of the World Series events in those two countries probably wouldn't be that great for the sport. Having 3 events in the USA (NYC, San Fran, Hawaii) is kind of misleading as the distances between each of the race sites is what? 5000 km? Just look at the results list and see how many paddlers raced all of them - 3? The point here is that 3 US races hardly favors an American in the standings. My personal feeling is that, yeah, it's fun to see my name way down in the standings, but it's not important, and we all know that the point system doesn't fairly compare paddlers mid-list, so there is no point in arguing about how just or unjust it is. Some type of % system with bonuses would be best for the top 20 or so, and I'd think a simple grading class for the rest of us would be better as Joe Smith, a fair to middling paddler in the US cannot be fairly compared to mid pack paddler Herman Von Hornbechliet in SA, right? If both are compared to the real "elites", by a % score, then just give them an A, B, C, ... I would think that all the sub-elites and mid pack paddlers would be content with that. Which brings up another thought. Rob and Alain could make up www.surfski.info grading jerseys and we around the world could buy them. For example, if I make A grade in NYC or Perth, etc, then I'll send surfski.info some money and they'll send me an A grade jersey somewhat similar to the ones you Saffas get. Good idea, right? - nell Wed, 18 Jun 2008 00:01:15 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2511 As a paddler who has been privileged enough to attend some of the major surfski events around the world and compete with the best paddlers in the world, it is so exciting to see the enthusiasm of all participants in the sport in every country that I have visited. I am confident that this sport can do nothing but grow worldwide. To the point made about attending events for professional paddlers. I agree that it is a big investment for any paddler wishing to compete in the International circuit (my bank account would agree too). Currently there are a few sponsors that are making it possible for paddlers to travel to the various events, but there is certainly still plenty of room for sponsors aside from surfski manufacturers to get involved in this fast developing sport. To the point made by Greg P earlier, I am honored to be on the same page as some of the paddlers listed there. It inspires me and motivates me more to compete with the best of them and I only hope that it is the same for other aspiring professional paddlers. If you’d like to learn a little more about me and my pursuit to promote and grow this amazing sport Greg, you can take a look at my blog www.iangray.info - Ian Gray Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:47:51 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2512 I think you are a little off the mark in thinking that it's because of regulations that marathon racing is down on numbers. As it's not an olympic event, most organisations do not fund their paddlers with decent grant schemes or support. Where as sprint and slalom get the vast majority of available funding and both branches of the sport are doing very well. If you're in a sprint team, it's likely that everything is covered. Make a marathon team and you have to fund a lot of the trip yourself. I believe this to have a major effect on the sport and not the regulations of the craft/courses etc. Sporting bodies are concerned with Olympic medals, everything else takes second place. A second factor to be considered is that Marathon is not very spectator friendly. They have tried to address that by make the laps shorter and making it more appealing to fans. This is something that ocean racing probably needs to be wary of also in attracting sponsors. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. Cheers. - Stewart Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:26:07 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2510 Marc you are 100% correct in saying World Championship Tour, although amoungst the punters the WCT get refered to as "the chase of the World Crown Title" so excuse my ambiguous reference. BTW Dawid Mocke may be able to help you with boat transport post Durbs WC with Cape trailer down to the berg! - Jamii Hamlin Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:34:54 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2509 As we know, the problem with percentages is the reliability of timing and some of the races fall very short there. The fact that half the races are from SA and the US is only because those are the only ones that qualify - no fault of the 'series organisers'. It's up to the other countries to hold races that have the conditions, prize money and exposure to qualify. Better this start that can be refined from all these comments than just an idea, so great tos ee it all taking shape. Btw I'm not a surfer but pretty sure it's the World Championship Tour (WCT) of surfing. - Marc Cloete Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:35:10 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2508 I think the last thing the sport needs at the moment is rules and regulations or a governing council. This will only slow the growth. The first ICF Marathon Canoeing World Cup was held last weekend, with as always very few particpants (only 3 entries per country, very few countries, no sponsors - the impact of regulation). Let the organisers grow their individual events and if it helps to get sponsors by being part of the World Series then give the event a star rating, ie Plett. Lets look at it in 5 years time and create regulations when there's 1000 paddlers and 30 events involved and without the regulation it can't be managed. Great work Rob and Surfski.info over the past 2 years for getting the sport to a level where this discussion is even happening. Dave Provan - Dave Provan Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:57:07 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2507 All valid points made, it just aint working. The whole thing needs to be a Grand Slam I think we are accomplishing what you describe in that the major races are graded with a star rating that is applied to the paddler points. So the winner of a 4-star race gets 4 x the number of points of the winner of a 1-star race. So in practise, the guys have to race in the 4-star races in order to have a chance of winning overall. But the lower ranked races are still important for the rest of the field. We know from feedback that guys from different countries in the mid-pack of the races gauge each other by their positions in the rankings - it doesn't "mean anything", but it involves people and adds to the fun of the sport - which is why we're all there at the end of the day! We hope to have prize money for the top 3 places next season - not much, but it is another step in the right direction. - Rob Mousley Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:59:05 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2506 Many thanks for the comments. would you be likely to use a percentage system whereby the winner takes 100% Yes we do want to do that. They've been using the system for years here in our big Sunday Discovery Men's Health series - it works well and allows paddlers to measure themselves against the winner. Perhaps a better question to ask is how many of the top padlers have actually done 6 major races As you can see, not many have. We believe that the way to get more of the top paddlers to the races is to encourage the race organisers to provide more prize money. As an elite paddler, if you know that even coming 10th you'll win enough to pay your airfare - then you're more likely to travel. The concept of a world series is great but the reality is that it is financially not viable at the moment? That's why we went ahead and started it anyway; we believe that we need to have a viable product to show to a potential sponsor and we are getting close. We are in fact about to get some sponsorship for the next season. It still won't be what we'd like it to be, but it's a start. We were faced with a chicken and egg situation two years ago - do we try to find a sponsor and then have a series or do we invent the series and then find the sponsor. We chose the latter route because no sponsor is going to look at an unproven product. With the series now in its second year, we've shown that there is potential - and interest from paddlers & race organisers alike (these comments demostrate this fact). Now we have the product to show the sponsors. With 12 races in the "world" series this year, 3 happen to be in South Africa, and 3 happen to be in the US There are two markets that we're aiming at: the elite paddlers who are competing for the world title, and everyone else. The "everyone else" portion are those guys who are competing with their buddies, or who are just interested in seeing how they compare with other paddlers around the world. For the elite guys we need a set of 4- and 5-star races that they can all get to. The only way this can happen is for those races to have sufficient prize money to attract the top paddlers. Then we need to restrict the number of races to make it practical - e.g. the best 5 or 6 results. In this way we can ensure that the top guys make it to the 5 or 6 big races that they need. As for the rest - by changing to a percentage based system and by having as many races as possible around the globe, we increase participation and interest in the series. From feedback received during the last 2 years, we know that there is a demand for this. What the sport needs is a council As we've been setting up the series rules we have been consulting with race organisers and the top paddlers around the world. They are our council. To try to set up a kind of surfski ICF would be a massive job - it's hard enough coordinating input from the guys as it is! But this is all great feedback and it's definitely taken into account. We'll be publishing the new rules and the complete current standings in the next couple of days. - Rob Mousley Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:42:47 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2505 Interesting comments guys, but to respond unoffically to all slightly negative feedback you have to start somewhere and that is what Surfski.info has attempted! Granted it will not suit everbody and there will always be space to improve but for the moment atleast surfski.info have some form of a World Series that could be pitch for a large global sponsor to back & hopefully develop an elite pro tour made of Grand Slams events and 'lesser' events that could qualify as part of the elite series. If you were to compare this to profession surfing back in the 70's and early 80's it when through a similar teething problems and hiccups to grow the sport into what is is today with World Crown Title (WCT)comprising of 11 events made up of the elite 45 surfer who have seasoned the World Qualifing Series (WQS)which comprises of many star rated events spread around the global that the 1000's of pro surfers refer to as "the Grind" to make the top 28 cut into the WCT. 8x World Champ Kelly Slater has earned over US$ 16 million in winnings yet some of the pros on the WCT barely break even & are entirely dependant upon their sponsors (or families) to pay travel & equipment costs etc yet sponsorship is dependant upon the media coverage the athlete can produce and not always upon results. Personally I feel that Rod & co are on the right track and as paddling competetively is still at infant stage its expected to bumps its head a bit in finding its way, but it is growing and with the correct vested interest of an governing body and key ambassidors, with or without the ICF, it will likely reach the platform of a legitimate world series that will find global sponsorship and mass appeal will shortly follow similarly to that of surfing! - Jamii Hamlin Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:27:19 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2504 This is all great, but upon reflection i think we need to start from the begining. What the sport needs is a council or committee regardless of whether the ICF does anything to set a direction of where the sport is heading. We need standard race rules and regulations. Min and max distances to race over. the skis we paddle need to have standards with safty etc. And a whole ranges of other issues which our sport needs to set up before we even think about world series. I sure many others have thoughts as well! This sport is going to grow very fast in the coming years and unless we have direction it will disappear just as quick. - Macca Tue, 17 Jun 2008 07:11:30 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2503 All valid points made, it just aint working. The whole thing needs to be a Grand Slam - the 4 big events with the strongest fields are always Molo, Durban, Dubai and Perth. These are the only events that should count and there has to be some further prize for the winner of the Grand Slam. Points, percentages....it doesn't matter but at this point in time a world series structure can't support more than these events otherwise we'll have sub-elite (no disrespect) guys ranking way above their weight. - reg Tue, 17 Jun 2008 05:19:11 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2502 With 12 races in the "world" series this year, 3 happen to be in South Africa, and 3 happen to be in the US - so, given my limited mathematics experience, half of the races in the "world" series take place in 2 countries!?!?... wasn't there a statement previously issued when the inception of the "world" series was formed that no country would have more than 1 race in the "world" series? Not intending any disrespect to any paddler from any particular country, but this would seem to favour those paddlers from the US and South Africa as they have far less to travel to be able to earn "world" series points and be 'eligible' ... - James Shortis Tue, 17 Jun 2008 03:26:17 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2501 Perhaps a better question to ask is how many of the top padlers have actually done 6 major races - my guess is about 3 or 4 of the top guys - i.e. where would Hank be if he had done 6 ? Ian Gray is 5th but would battle to make the top 10 in in SA (perhaps even KZN) if all the top SA guys were racing ? The concept of a world series is great but the reality is that it is financially not viable at the moment? - Greg P Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:54:31 +0100 http://www.surfski.info/content/view/735/147/#pc_2500 and the runner up receives 98,75% x 4 = 395 - Jamii Hamlin Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:57:09 +0100