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ski speed
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Topic: ski speed (Read 3225 times)
Dave R
Full Member
Karma: +2/-0
Posts: 37
ski speed
«
on:
November 01, 2007, 10:21:01 AM »
There is a good selection of ski's available to us all now. Stable, novice ski's. Intermediate ski's and the elite 17" ski's. The big question , from most everyone, when getting into a new ski is usually "How fast is it?". That's the obvious question with secondary questions referring to the stability of the boat, build quality, etc. I've read some opinions stating that differences in hull speed might only be 4% between a boat like an XT vs a Millenium (assuming 100% stability, and all other things equal). Not much when you consider the major difference in paddling characteristics between those boats. The issue has even been tackled here on surfski.info with, in my opinion, a fantastic test by Rob and the guys.
So my questions to you guys and gals is, removing ego completely from the decision, what's your honest opinion on hull speed between novice (XT, etc) intermediate (EVO, Honcho Rookie, etc) and elite (Mako6, V10) type boats. How much faster, are these elite boats over the others? I'm sure some of you have experience with all three types of boat, what are your experiences?
Dave
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Stuart Knaggs
Sr. Member
Karma: +3/-1
Posts: 113
Re: ski speed
«
Reply #1 on:
November 01, 2007, 12:03:08 PM »
Based on my times in various boats over our Thursday evening time trial in flat to small chop, here is less than 5% between the learner boats (XT, Mentor) and the racing boats. Over a longer downwind paddle of around an hour and a half, the difference increases to about 10%. I am not an elite paddler by any means but I am perfectly comfortable in my Icon. In rough conditions, even an elite paddler can benefit from a more stable boat, note Jasper Mocke's record run in the Mentor.
Also, please lets get the misconception that longer boats are faster, out of the way. This only applies to displacement vessels whose length to beam ratio is less than 7:1. Any boat worthy of being called a surfski has a ratio of well over 12:1.
The things that effect the speed of the ski are the underwater shape, the buoyancy distribution, the centre of gravity, the amount of rocker and a host of other details.
As has been said before, it is more important to be stable on your boat than to paddle the flashest one available. I think it is way easier for a novice to take 10% off your time with some quality training or a course in technique than by shelling out for a new boat.
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Rob Mirlenbrink
Jr. Member
Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 8
Re: ski speed
«
Reply #2 on:
November 01, 2007, 02:38:32 PM »
I have paddled a number of different skis (Beginner, Spec, Racing) and I think the real difference comes in the effort you have to put forth to get the boats up to speed. The beginner and spec skis require, in my opinion, quite a bit more effort to keep "up to speed". I agree that racing skis might only be marginally faster (5%) but they are definetly more efficient and require less effort from the paddler. Just like my my K1 requires even less effort (shown via heart rate response) to paddle at 7mph than my Mako 6....
-Rob
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Dave R
Full Member
Karma: +2/-0
Posts: 37
Re: ski speed
«
Reply #3 on:
November 01, 2007, 03:19:48 PM »
Rob, do you think that's more a result of less weight/mass or hull efficiency? I'm thinking a good way to test boats is measure HR of the paddlers at given speeds. It would be an excellent way to measure efficiency of the hull. Throw several paddlers in the same boats and see if the trends are the same with them all. My guess it the lighter boats are considerably easier to keep at higher speeds based on paddling can kind of be broken down into a rapid series of short accellerations (followed by boat glide).
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Rob Mirlenbrink
Jr. Member
Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 8
Re: ski speed
«
Reply #4 on:
November 01, 2007, 03:37:07 PM »
I would have to say hull efficiency. Once a boat is up to speed, the weight should not matter. The lighter boats should only have an advantage upon acceleration and on downwind runs.
-Rob
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Thomas Yonley
Full Member
Karma: +5/-4
Posts: 56
Re: ski speed
«
Reply #5 on:
November 01, 2007, 04:18:49 PM »
Quote from: xpat on November 01, 2007, 12:03:08 PM
Also, please lets get the misconception that longer boats are faster, out of the way. This only applies to displacement vessels whose length to beam ratio is less than 7:1. Any boat worthy of being called a surfski has a ratio of well over 12:1.
I don't think that what you are saying here is quite true.
The speed of a displacement hull is primarily governed by two things:
#1. Friction resistance (proportional to the wetted surface area)
Reducing friction resistance is very simple because you must simply reduce the surface area of the boat that is underwater. The optimal shape with respect to surface area is a half sphere. With regard to a typcial surf ski, you can reduce friction resistance by making the boat shorter and by making the bottom more rounded (optimally, it will have the cross section of a half sphere).
#2. Wave resistance (roughly governed by the length and pointy-ness of the hull
Reducing wave resistance is also very simple. Make the boat longer and more pointy.
---
As you can see, the two goals run somewhat against each other, so boat designers have a challenge of striking the right balance. If you make the boat too short, it will have a lot of wave resistance. If you make the boat too long, you will have too much friction resistance.
To make things more complicated, wave resistance increases somewhat exponentially with increasing hull speed, wheras friction resistance increases in a more linear manner. This means that at different speeds, the ratio between friction resistance and wave resistance changes--so a hull that is optimal for sprinting at over 10 MPH will not be as fast at 7 MPH as a boat designed optimally for 7 MPH. Also, for the same hull, the ratios will be different depending on the weight of the paddler (plus the weight of the hull)--so a boat designed optimally for a 200 lb paddler (at a certain speed) will not be optimal for a 150 lb paddler.
The 21 ft, 17 inch wide surf skis are generally designed for heavier racers paddling at very high speeds (8+ MPH). I agree that making these boats longer is likely not going to make them faster (a longer kayak has been made--the X-Par missile--and it is not proven successful). However, making them shorter will definitely make them slower for their intended occupant.
A lighter paddler would likely benefit from a shorter hull (witness the 18.33 ft Huki S1-A, designed for <150 lb paddler). A paddler intending to cruise at slower speeds would also likely benefit from a shorter hull (proportionally less wave resistance at lower speeds means that friction resistance is relatively more important).
For a given weight, a given speed, and a given hull shape, there exists an optimal hull length. For most surfski racers, that optimal length is somewhere near 21 ft--any shorter and the boat will be slower, but any longer and the boat will also be slower. In that sense, the "longer is faster" is a myth..
However, a typical elite surfski racer, the current elite boats are very close to optimal. In the range of available boats, longer really does equal faster. The reason why elite racers use 21 ft boats instead of 19 ft boats is because the 21 ft boats are faster--and there aren't many boats out there longer than 21 ft. In that sense, the "longer is faster" is not a myth.
------
Obviously, you are coming from having the experience of a 17ft K1 being more effecient at 7 MPH compared with a 21ft ski. However, if you could take your 21 ft ski and shrink the width so that it is as narrow as the K1, I think that the tables would likely be turned (depending on your weight of course)--particularly if you were paddling at 8 MPH rather than 7 MPH. (I say this realizing that I personally can't hold 8 MPH long.)
«
Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 04:33:18 PM by Thomas Yonley
»
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Thomas Yonley
Full Member
Karma: +5/-4
Posts: 56
Re: ski speed
«
Reply #6 on:
November 01, 2007, 04:23:19 PM »
Quote from: Rob Mirlenbrink on November 01, 2007, 03:37:07 PM
I would have to say hull efficiency. Once a boat is up to speed, the weight should not matter. The lighter boats should only have an advantage upon acceleration and on downwind runs.
-Rob
This is absolutely not true. Lighter boats are faster at constant effort, or require less effort at constant speeds. Why do you think that marathon K1s are built even lighter than sprint K1s? When you add more weight, the boat sinks lower into the water. The extra part of the boat that is now underwater is adding additional resistance. The physics is undeniable.
«
Last Edit: November 01, 2007, 04:27:17 PM by Thomas Yonley
»
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Jim Murray
Jr. Member
Karma: +0/-1
Posts: 15
Re: ski speed
«
Reply #7 on:
November 02, 2007, 02:10:52 AM »
Just a thought....what if the paddler were to lose weight? some could lose a lot. Would a heavier boat then go faster? There would be considerable $ savings in buying a lighter boat, and even more savings with reduced beer consumption. Maybe the paddler will become fitter and stronger- and faster. Maybe close and regular attention to technique would bring even more speed gains.
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Dave R
Full Member
Karma: +2/-0
Posts: 37
Re: ski speed
«
Reply #8 on:
November 02, 2007, 09:32:34 AM »
Jim, your absolutely right. You'll see the real speed gains by increasing your fitness, learning good technique and training. There is no substitute for that, IMO. What I'm getting at is basically about boat stability vs boat speed (or potential). In order to extract the potential out of the boat you have to be stable. You're giving up speed if your not thoroughly stable in a boat. I'm sure all of us want the fastest boat that we can paddle. The trick is in defining that "line" between boat speed and stability that helps us choose boats that are best for each of us. That's basically why I'm asking these questions. When I'm ready to upgrade to a new boat from my XT I have a hunch that, although I can paddle a Mako6 or S1-X, I'll be faster overall in one of the more intermediate boats (Evo, V10sport, etc). That would probably take minimal acclimation time to get used to those boats. However, if the elite boats really have alot more potential speed then I'm not against taking the extra time to develop my skills in those boats.
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Thomas Yonley
Full Member
Karma: +5/-4
Posts: 56
Re: ski speed
«
Reply #9 on:
November 02, 2007, 10:16:29 AM »
Quote from: Jim Murray on November 02, 2007, 02:10:52 AM
Just a thought....what if the paddler were to lose weight? some could lose a lot. Would a heavier boat then go faster? There would be considerable $ savings in buying a lighter boat, and even more savings with reduced beer consumption. Maybe the paddler will become fitter and stronger- and faster. Maybe close and regular attention to technique would bring even more speed gains.
Yes, of course. However, some would argue that if you had a choice between carying an extra 10 lbs on your boat, or on your body, you would be better off with the weight on your body. There are two logical reasons for this: One is that invariably, some % of those 10 lbs will be muscle. The second reason is that the weight distributed near the ends of the boat will increase its rotational inertia (making it less responsive to steering) which causes you to need to use more rudder which causes more drag. Granted the same weight on your body will also slow the boat's turning ability, but not as much--because all of your weight is distributed very close to the center of the boat. Furthermore, the increased rotational inertia may also effect responsiveness in riding waves (I don't know about this).
In any case, the MOST important thing is strength to weight ratio, and the best way to do this is to loose your body fat AND get the lighter ski!
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Thomas Yonley
Full Member
Karma: +5/-4
Posts: 56
Re: ski speed
«
Reply #10 on:
November 02, 2007, 10:28:39 AM »
Quote from: Dave R on November 01, 2007, 10:21:01 AM
There is a good selection of ski's available to us all now. Stable, novice ski's. Intermediate ski's and the elite 17" ski's. The big question , from most everyone, when getting into a new ski is usually "How fast is it?". That's the obvious question with secondary questions referring to the stability of the boat, build quality, etc. I've read some opinions stating that differences in hull speed might only be 4% between a boat like an XT vs a Millenium (assuming 100% stability, and all other things equal). Not much when you consider the major difference in paddling characteristics between those boats. The issue has even been tackled here on surfski.info with, in my opinion, a fantastic test by Rob and the guys.
So my questions to you guys and gals is, removing ego completely from the decision, what's your honest opinion on hull speed between novice (XT, etc) intermediate (EVO, Honcho Rookie, etc) and elite (Mako6, V10) type boats. How much faster, are these elite boats over the others? I'm sure some of you have experience with all three types of boat, what are your experiences?
Dave
I have not tried the more stable skis--only the Huki S1-X, Epic V10, and the Mako 6. However, I would like to comment on the 4% number. The fact is that 4% is a VERY big deal. Let us assume that you can paddle the XT at an average of 7.0 MPH for a certain distance. If you were to get a boat that was 4% faster, you would then paddle 7.28 MPH. Similarly, if you were in a race that was 2 hours long in your Mako XT, doing that same race in a 4% faster boat would result in a time of 1:55:12 --almost 5 minutes faster.
Just my opinion, but if you have access to flat water, get a tippy K1 and learn how to paddle it. If all goes well, over time, your body adapts such that during all points in your stroke, your center of gravity is PERFECTLY centered in the boat. After this exercise, all of the top end skis will seem plenty stable (at least on flat water). (Obviously, if you are too old, you may have a difficult time doing this--masters K1s are often made more stable than normal ones.)
«
Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 07:02:10 PM by Thomas Yonley
»
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Jim Murray
Jr. Member
Karma: +0/-1
Posts: 15
Re: ski speed
«
Reply #11 on:
November 02, 2007, 02:11:39 PM »
Thomas Yonley- you have made a very good point about the age factor. Reaction time to stimulae definitely degrades, but can be offset by regular training. The other thing about good balance is the ability to relax both physically and mentally. A lack of flexability/range of motion in hips, [esp. adductors], and hamstrings can cause a lot of instability. There is nothing like a bit of careful stretching after every workout. Sprint boat stability increases with speed. You have to take control of the thing and paddle it with confidence. Head down, short strokes and a lot of bracing will dump you. I expect the faster surf skis are the same.
You are also quite right about the faster boats- all other things being equal. Still, there is a lot of time to be picked up with attention to good paddle technique and water reading skills.
I too am trying to figure what kind of surfski to buy. The more stable ones make sense- but the long skinny carbon boats sure are beautiful!
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Thomas Yonley
Full Member
Karma: +5/-4
Posts: 56
Re: ski speed
«
Reply #12 on:
November 02, 2007, 02:30:08 PM »
Quote from: Jim Murray on November 02, 2007, 02:11:39 PM
Thomas Yonley- you have made a very good point about the age factor. Reaction time to stimulae definitely degrades, but can be offset by regular training. The other thing about good balance is the ability to relax both physically and mentally. A lack of flexability/range of motion in hips, [esp. adductors], and hamstrings can cause a lot of instability. There is nothing like a bit of careful stretching after every workout. Sprint boat stability increases with speed. You have to take control of the thing and paddle it with confidence. Head down, short strokes and a lot of bracing will dump you. I expect the faster surf skis are the same.
You are also quite right about the faster boats- all other things being equal. Still, there is a lot of time to be picked up with attention to good paddle technique and water reading skills.
I too am trying to figure what kind of surfski to buy. The more stable ones make sense- but the long skinny carbon boats sure are beautiful!
I have seen some older people try to do a K1 and just never "get it". I definitly agree that not everyone will have the reaction time and muscle memory--especially with older people. However, the only way to find out is to try it. In many parts of the world, it is pretty easy to get used older K1s for very cheap (I bought one for ~$300 USD here in Texas). In my opinion, it is worth trying to paddle a cheap tippy K1 prior to getting an expensive surfski because the K1 experience will let you know your limit. If you can comfortably handle the K1, any of the newer 17 inch skis will seem very stable by comparison.
I just got my Mako 6 a couple months ago. It is an absolutely thrilling boat. However, if I hadn't learned to paddle a K1 first, I would likely be frustrated to have spent so much money on something that I couldn't stay upright in.
In all honesty, if you actually want to be competitive in races, you probably need to bite the bullet and get a 17 inch ski. If you just want to have fun, and maybe do a race or two, odds are, a 19 inch ski will be the best choice.
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Dave R
Full Member
Karma: +2/-0
Posts: 37
Re: ski speed
«
Reply #13 on:
November 02, 2007, 06:50:09 PM »
Quote from: xpat on November 01, 2007, 12:03:08 PM
Based on my times in various boats over our Thursday evening time trial in flat to small chop, here is less than 5% between the learner boats (XT, Mentor) and the racing boats. Over a longer downwind paddle of around an hour and a half, the difference increases to about 10%. I am not an elite paddler by any means but I am perfectly comfortable in my Icon. In rough conditions, even an elite paddler can benefit from a more stable boat, note Jasper Mocke's record run in the Mentor.
Xpat,
10% would be significant in my book on a longer downwind run. I agree with what your saying in your reply about most folks benefitting from a more stable boat. I'm guessing only the very elite paddlers have a real handle on their boats in rougher stuff. Some of us only wish for that kind of boat control.
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Txski
Full Member
Karma: +4/-0
Posts: 27
Re: ski speed
«
Reply #14 on:
November 02, 2007, 07:11:20 PM »
Total boat control??? I'm not sure I have that at any point. Taking it off the car...nope....portaging down to the beach...nope.....paddling in big nasty chop...hale no!! The fun factor is always high though.
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