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July 24, 2008, 11:26:47 AM
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Tippo Meter
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Topic: Tippo Meter (Read 1269 times)
Richard Hart
Full Member
Karma: +1/-1
Posts: 45
Tippo Meter
«
on:
April 15, 2008, 12:41:57 AM »
Has anyone any ideas on creating one?
Imagine being able to review a ski and produce comparable figures on the tippiness, the angles for primary and secondary stability and even an optimum paddler height/weight.
I'm not sure if all this would be possible, BUT, I've seen some very scientific responses in the surfski.info threads so I guess it is.
The design must be simple (think of the golf Stimp meter for green speed).
I'm thinking along the lines of a significant weight, cantered over the lowest point of the seat to be the the 'paddler' and a tripod that fixes to the foot block and back of the seat, with:
a vertical bar that can be set to various angles; and
a small weight that can be moved up the bar to make the ski tip.
As the small weight is moved up and out, the ski should start to tip and, in theory (?) provide the angles of stability. Various 'paddler' weights can provide a table etc.
I could be wrong and if so, I'm sure to find out, BUT, it may even get people to check in five of more times a day!!
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Stuart Knaggs
Sr. Member
Karma: +3/-1
Posts: 113
Re: Tippo Meter
«
Reply #1 on:
April 16, 2008, 05:06:44 AM »
Skis are basically unstable. There is no righting moment on a ski shape once it starts to heel, so it will capsize without a live paddler once it tips fractionally to one side or the other. A bit like a bicycle really. That is why tippiness has to be a subjective measurement and depends a lot on the shape of he paddler.
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David Hartwanger
Newbie
Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 3
Re: Tippo Meter
«
Reply #2 on:
April 16, 2008, 10:16:08 AM »
That's not a bad idea Richard, although Stuart is right. The stability of a ski & paddler combination is very dependent upon the height of the Centre of Gravity of the paddler. If we assume its near the belly button of the average person, then yes, most ski's are near neutral, slightly stable, or slightly unstable depending upon design.
However, in terms of a measure as you suggest, this could be done I think. Instead of dumping 80-90 kg of weight directly into the seat, the boat could be supported in a rig that applies a specified load and allows the boat to roll about a specific point (quite low down, simulating a low CoG). One could then measure the righting moment over a range of angles. Obviously this would be a relative measure, against a 'standard' or benchmark case, but potentially quite useful I think.
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Sandy Giltinan
Jr. Member
Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 16
Re: Tippo Meter
«
Reply #3 on:
April 16, 2008, 12:20:13 PM »
An interesting study in physics , hopefully it wouldn't be construed as a solid basis for chosing a ski. Way to many variables in body shape and CG.If there is a new ski paddler looking for a ski this might serve as a distraction from their need to actually paddle those skis they are interested in. If you were to buy the ski soley based on the results of the hypothetical tippometer you would probably get some very real lessons in applied physics. Sandy
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Richard Hart
Full Member
Karma: +1/-1
Posts: 45
Re: Tippo Meter
«
Reply #4 on:
April 17, 2008, 01:25:01 AM »
Quote
Skis are basically unstable. There is no righting moment on a ski shape once it starts to heel, so it will capsize without a live paddler
That's the idea of having a 'heavy' weight in the seat to be 'the paddler'!
Quote
An interesting study in physics , hopefully it wouldn't be construed as a solid basis for chosing a ski.
I wouldn't suggest that, as nothing can beat paddling various ski's, but it could provide more information when comparing similar skis and if a newer model is 'around the corner' that has 'better stability' , perhaps it would be worth waiting.
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Gavin Gottschalk
Newbie
Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 4
Re: Tippo Meter
«
Reply #5 on:
April 17, 2008, 09:10:14 AM »
Can someone explain the concepts of 'primary' and 'secondary' stability? How does this translate into what the paddler experiences on the water? Is it better to have more primary or more secondary stability, or is that paddler dependant? Does anyone have examples of which boats display more/less characteristics of each?
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Thomas Yonley
Full Member
Karma: +5/-4
Posts: 56
Re: Tippo Meter
«
Reply #6 on:
April 17, 2008, 01:02:48 PM »
Primary stability is the stability that holds the boat up while it is near perfectly upright. Once you lean over somewhat, secondary stability is the stability that resists you leaning over more. Many surfskis have a lot of secondary stability such that the boat holds you up as you lean over more and more. For example, the Mako6 provides a lot of stability as you lean over more (even after the gunwale is under water, it is still pushing you up), but is a bit twitchy while you are perfectly upright. I had a solo canoe (known as the "Spencer Eagle") that has a good deal of initial (or primary) stability, but once you lean over a bit it no longer seems to hold you up (and you will tip in if you aren't careful).
In scientific terms, there is a certain force that the boat exhibits which resists rotation. You could draw a plot of this curve for the boat at every angle. There are software tools to give stability analysis of hull designs, but I don't have any experience with these.
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David Hartwanger
Newbie
Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 3
Re: Tippo Meter
«
Reply #7 on:
April 17, 2008, 02:11:53 PM »
A boat that has a perfectly circular cross-section can have good primary stability, but poor secondary stability. This is because the centre of bouyancy doesn't move when the boat rolls. An example might be a sprint kayak (near circular cross-sections), or a rowing shell.
A cross-section that is more oval or tending towards rectangular can have the same primary stability as above, but much better secondary stability because the centre of bouyancy will shift as the boat rolls. Most surf-ski's have a flat spot on the hull that creates more secondary stability. So this is something visual to look out for when comparing boats. Having said that, its virtually impossible to assess a boats stability by just looking at it. There are one or two other variables that come into the stability physics that require accurate measurement. So you should always paddle the boat, before passing judgement.
On a slight different note, if a circular cross-section is unstable why use it? Well, it minimises the wetted surface area which means more speed. This is not always the case, but as a general rule of thumb holds true. Stability versus Speed is basically the bottom line. Of course, everyone wants the fastest boat with stability. This is not impossible, but not easy either. Also, the human element makes it a classic design problem where there is more than one possible outcome, depending upon the strengths and weakenesses of the paddler. Yes, it can get a bit technical, but fascinating also. The current generation in surf-skis are seriously pushing the envelope in this department.
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Gavin Gottschalk
Newbie
Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 4
Re: Tippo Meter
«
Reply #8 on:
April 17, 2008, 02:58:25 PM »
Thanks for those replies. I paddle a Mako 6 and Thomas's comments resonate with my experience.
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