Imagine that little Johnny hands his essay in to his university lecturer.  "I've copied someone else's paper," he says, "but it's ok, I've only used 70% of it and I've improved some of the details."  "It's a great piece of work," he adds, "the original had very good reviews."

Unlikely?  This appears to be exactly what Damien Daley has done with his "70%" copy of the V10, the "XLR8 Odyssey" surf ski.

XLR8

The '70%' copied V10/XLR8 (Photo: XLR8 Paddle Sports)

The XLR8 website is at http://web.mac.com/xlr8paddlesports

Look at the photos and the video clip and you'll notice that the ski looks identical to the V10. 

Click on the ABOUT XLR8 link.  Half way down the page is this piece of information:

When the ski was originally developed it was engineered by World and Olympic Champions and had its prototype designed on a CAD machine.

Read that again!  He's not saying he designed the ski.  Of course not - it was designed by World Champion Oscar Chalupsky and Olympic Champion Greg Barton.  He hasn't only copied the ski; he's copied the marketing spiel as well. 

 XLR8 decided to use approx. 70% of the V10 changing the tail, deck, rudder, adjustable foot system, venturi system, construction lay-up and seem (sic) set-up.

There it is: he's saying he's copied 70% of someone else's work. 

XLR8 Users

The website lists some paddlers who are using the XLR8.  

• Former Olympic Champion Ian Rowling. 
• Nick Holt, "a 4 time National title holder".
• Olympian Paula Harvey "has announced she will compete the 20 beaches later this year using the XLR8 Ocean Ski".
• Tommy Woodriff.  According to the website, "Tommy believes that [local] ski paddlers should get behind [local] ski manufacturer's (sic) and buy [locally] made products."

Aha - so that's it.  It may be a copy, but it's locally made. 

Do these people know that Epic hasn't given permission for Daley to copy "70%" of their design?  Because they most emphatically have not. 

What's the problem with ripping off?

Some of you may be asking: Aside from the obvious ethical and moral issues, what's the problem with ripping off someone else's design? 

Here's the thing: Epic Kayaks, a U.S. based company that does its manufacturing in China, invested in R&D to the tune of US$200,000 to create the ski.  They combined the knowledge of Oscar Chalupsky and Greg Barton with a custom computer-aided design program developed for the project by John Dixon.  The V10 is called the V10 because it was their 10^th attempt at the design.  The plug was CNC machined at massive expense. 

For details, see The V10 Story 

And, as Damien Daley says, With great stability, the Odyssey model (i.e. the V10) allows all paddlers to feel comfortable. This helps the paddler concentrate on keeping the ski going fast instead of trying to keep upright.  The V10 was a breakthrough in ski design.  The top of the range skis previously were too unstable for most paddlers to handle.  Subsequently other manufacturers like Fenn and Red7 developed equally stable skis, also at great expense.

The problem is that if people are allowed to get away with cheap copies, companies like Epic, Fenn, Red7, Huki and newcomers Honcho will simply cease to waste money on R&D and innovation.  And we'll all be losers.

"No flippin' crooks here mate!"

Paul Mauger, who runs the Currumbin Creek Series was offered sponsorship for his races by Damien Daley.

"I turned it down," he said, "no flippin' crooks here mate!"

"I have been considering whether or not to disqualify any or all copied skis such as the xlr8 from entering my series," he added. "At this stage it's only Ian Rowling who owns one up here, however should more start appearing then I could well act on this. Can you imagine the outcry should all series organisers go that route?"

Deal Gardiner agrees.  "I think it's about time the paddling community got together and stopped these guys doing this," he said.  "The only way to do it is to not allow the skis to race.  I am looking at that for our series and encourage other race organizers to do the same."

Comments (100)

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Build quality and price
written by Remador, May 27, 2007

Hi Rob,

Not disputing the points you raise. This type of me too behaviour is not unique to our sport. It happens in virtually every market. It is one of the first things you learn when you study Marketing. If you put in the R&D, you need to recoup your costs quickly and invest in your brand equity. I believe the team at EPIC have done both. Their business is unlikely to suffer. The key is to keep investing in the brand and offering some type of value add.

One thing that will be appealing to potential Australia buyers is the quality of the Odyssey. The 2 Odyssey's I have seen have a superior build quality and the materials used are far superior to the numerous V10's that I have seen. I own a V10 that was manufactured in China. I am not confident that I will get too many seasons use out of it. I would feel a lot more confident and safer on an Odyssey and have no qualms about purchasing one in the future. I believe to be better value for money.

Regards,

Remador

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written by Joe Barker, May 27, 2007

At first I was upset that a company would rip off anothers ski after all the time, $$$, and creativity they put into developing it. But couldn't Epic take the new "improved" rip off and copy 70% of it, add even more improvements, and end up with a better ski than they could have even imagined in the start? Yes I know we're on shaky ground here ethically but what will the end product be? Just thinking out loud here...
Joe

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Totally agree with Remador
written by Nico D, May 28, 2007

Sure the person in question has shamelessly used the Epic design as a starting point, but at least he is honest about it. I wonder how many manufacturers used the Fenn Mako design and similarly changed it over time, I bet quite a few. I'm guessing Fenn didn't care much since his brand is strong enough and his prices are pretty good. If someone modified the Fenn 6 I would still buy the 6 because I trust the brand.

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written by Michael A, May 28, 2007

Instead of whinging about someone copying 70% of your ski, think of it this way. They are actually doing what YOU should be doing & that is, they're improving on your basic design. So why not take a good, hard look at Damien Daleys innovations & see where there is room for your improvement. Let's face it, if people didn't come along & put their design thoughts into practise, we'd still be paddling flat wooden skis & kayaks made out of wood & canvas. Just because you've put a lot of time & effort into designing a product doesn't mean you can sit back & expect to rule the market for ever, get real mate. If paddlers really like & appreciate your brand of ski, they'll stick with it, otherwise, they're free to compare & decide on the style of ski that suits them. No one has a monopoly on the market & it's great to see so much copetition & terrific skis being produced. My only regret is that none of these great craft were around 15 years ago when I was seriousely into paddling.

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Growing pains
written by Reg, May 28, 2007

I'm an Aussie who likes what South Africans are doing for the sport with their great skis, big events and awesome crop of elite paddlers.

That said, the surf ski market is fairly immature and I agree with Remador ? superior product designs are copied in every market and all the critics should realise that most of what we consume may be just another xlr8.

I was a bit concerned about the suggestion that certain craft may be blacklisted from events ? punishing the competitor as well as the manufacturer. Let?s not create any division or discrimination in this great sport just so that the market leaders can delay the inevitable. My take is that the ski paddling is just experiencing growing pains (a good thing) and this xlr8 issue needs to be taken in that context. I don?t respect Xlr8 as a brand but also don?t believe Damien Daley deserves vilification. He?s just the first bloke to do what is rampant in every market around the world. Or is he just the first bloke in the surf ski market to openly admit it ? not a bad quality.

I?m a brand loyalist and providing my brand keeps producing better boats they?ll get my business. At the end of the day, the true market leaders and innovators should never rest on their past achievements ? as long as they keep performing they get respect and a larger share of the spoils.

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Copy v Innovate
written by Rob Mousley, May 28, 2007

Interesting comments - and thanks for keeping it clean!

Here are two extreme hypothetical situations:

- Copying is totally acceptable and five minutes after a new ski comes out, you can take a mould off it and produce your own. No protection whatsoever for the original designer.
- No form of copying is acceptable at all. Any new ski must be completely original from hull shape to rudder.

To my mind the first is unacceptable, the second impractical. Clearly new skis will be derivations of existing skis. So what extent of "derivation" is acceptable?

For example, I think it's ok to look at an existing ski and to notice that by making the hull wider behind the seat, it's made the ski more stable and then to go and shape a hull with those design parameters in mind. I think it's not ok to take a mould off the existing hull without even understanding what gives it its characteristics.

Why? Because it costs money to do design. Epic, in this case, did a major design work and the users of Epic skis all benefit from that. If copies are allowed and manufacturers have no protection, then we won't see continued improvement and innovation.

Taking a mould off the hull & changing a few details is, to my mind, overstepping the mark.

I'd like to see manufacturers' plugs - if they can show their design on CAD or show that it was built up using hull frames or from foam, then, hey, they've actually done design work and they deserve their accolades. If they've simply flopped the hull and changed the rudder pedals, then that's unfair & it shouldn't be allowed.

Why should XLR8 benefit from the CAD, the computer simulations, the CNC machining of the V10 plug, etc, without putting effort into their own design work?

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written by paul lalor, May 28, 2007

i have just bought an xlr8 ski & could not be happier.mine is a carbon ski that is $2,200.00 cheaper than the inferior chinese ski.these chinese skis are breaking all over the world,that you cannot deny.epic skis should be checking on the quality of what is coming out of china & not worrying if someone has made a far better quality ski than theres.mine has 9 bulk heads,has inspection ports,large stainless steel rudder shafts,stainless steel steering cables & you can order it in any colour you like.i congratulate damian on the quality of his skis & condemn chinese inferior rubbish.why should anyone pay over $2,000.00 more for a ski that is rubbish & is not hand made.

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Cheaper ski
written by Rob Mousley, May 28, 2007

Paul, did you stop to think why the XLR8 is $2,200 cheaper? One reason is that XLR8 hasn't invested in R&D, so they don't have amortise the costs. That's why it's so unfair to copy a design that did incur expensive development costs.

As for "these chinese skis are breaking all over the world", that's news to me and I probably hear more about skis than anyone on the planet. I don't paddle an Epic and I don't get paid by them - but my impression is that those Chinese skis are the best quality of anything I've ever seen. Skis do get broken - but I don't think these skis break any more than any other brand.

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What
written by Burton, May 28, 2007

Here we are again same ski same problum , i am amazad that epic / fenn / and others dont all sit down and confess that they might borrowed some design aspects from each other it looks to me like they have,oh but thats ok your all South Africans, and as for your R and D costs is that why a ski costing between $900 and $1200 AUD in Sth Africa is suddenly $3000.00 when it hits our golden sands, yeah it might be a bit blunt but the truth often is .

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Epic Quality
written by Bevan Manson, May 28, 2007

Paul... your comments are a little strange. It almost seems you are not really sure what you are speaking about. The EPIC are by far the leaders in both quality and finish and are producing what is very quickly becoming the most popular ski in the world. In my recent travels, to NZ and Hawaii, and around South Africa, it is clearly obvious that everyone who owns or paddles an EPIC is very happy with what they have. I have two chinese boats and they are immaculate, and there are many in durban, all of which are great.

I think attacking other brands in a public forum is off sides, these guys have a huge business to run, and your comments effect them directly. It really is just in bad taste.

The whole debate about how/why/what Damian has copied is a little ridiclous. 70% is ridiculous as well. He has simply copied a v10, and made some small 'changes'! His boats should simply be banned from all official races.

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Burton
written by Rob Mousley, May 28, 2007

>> why a ski costing between $900 and $1200 AUD in Sth Africa is suddenly $3000.00

(Can we keep SA v Oz out of it? We're talking about a US company here in any case.) The Chinese-built V10 skis are just as expensive here in SA as they are anywhere else in the world. The reason the Fenns & Red7s are more expensive in Oz and the US is the transport plus distribution costs.

The fact that these skis are expensive in Oz should make it all the more easy for a local manufacturer to be competitive. All we're asking is that said local manufacturer should do his own design work.

"Borrowing design aspects" is very different to "taking a mould off a ski".

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Bevo Bevo Bevo,...Calm yourself my friend...and dont mind that portage hey my bru ; )
written by Karl Treacher, May 28, 2007

Well well, how about all this then. When I am not paddling for 6 hours across the channel with my Australian and Sth African mates (Bevo Munsta included), I run a branding agency called Brand Behaviour. I consult internationally on branding and write for 5 marketing magazines every month around the concept of the psychology of branding, so allow me to share a purest branding view.

What we are all missing here is the reality that regardless of what DD does, Epic has established itself as a major player and arguably industry leader in the small world of surf ski manufacturing. A brand is a unique set of thoughts and feelings that someone has for any 'thing' - a person, a product, a service, a dog...whatever. There is enormous amount of brand equity in both Fenn and Epic, to an extent that any new player, particularly a tiny one man band will have to work very hard to 'earn' any of that equity from our friends at Epic and Fenn. I deliberately leave Red 7 out bc their brand equity is questionable based on experiential testament.

The laws of branding dictate that emotional association and familiarity, along with the inherent human influencers (a) social proof - volume of sales and (b) Authority(Oscar, Hank, Herman, Bevo and Tim Jacobs and Dave Kissane in Australia) - means that the brand is strong, robust and would in many cases benefit from a parasite brand.

All major brands exist with challenger brands vying for recognition any way that they legally can. Like it or not, this is the way of western capitalism.

Let?s look at NIKE, COKE and SPAR (convenient stores in SA for non SA readers). All of these brands have competitors that have copied formula, imitated logo and worked overtime replicating the customer experience. Have these brands suffered? ah nup. In fact, despite Pepsi winning EVERY single taste test, Coke continues to grow in market share, why? bc of its brand equity. size, and customer advocacy - all things that Epic and Fenn both have loads of.

Final word is, unless we are starting a model train club, get on with it and go paddling. There is a whole lot more to life than banging on about this rubbish. I should know because it is what I have done for a living for 10 years. Considering the brands in question, the only people who stand to lose anything is us by wasting our time writing and reading this.

P.S. Bevan, tell the truth about who won that swimming race

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stop and think for a moment.
written by oneoftheboyswatchingandwaiting, May 28, 2007

The fact that everybody said morals aside...... leads me to believe anything goes in their eyes. What would happen if it happened in your bussines, workplace or job? If you did all the work but your fellow work mate just copied you and got all the credit? Would that be alright or would you suddenly have an issue with it?

Put yourself in someone elses shoes. I agree with Bevan and Rob comments. My opinion is: outright coping is morally wrong and that should be enough.

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more to come i suspect
written by kurt tutt, May 28, 2007

I only dabble in ocean racing and love it, being a surf life saving ski paddler. While This is sensatioonal news why is it only DD singled out. I'm not even socially in deep with the paddling scene here in australia and i can think of a few more guys out there doing the same thing and never being questioned for it.( ie fenn 6 soon to be brought out by a highly questionable former great paddler as the next big thing here in australia). Happy paddles crew, Give me a ski though and i'll paddle it, give me a chance to race and i'll have a go, put a beer in my hand following the race and i'll piss it up with you.

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written by lats, May 28, 2007

Hey Tutty , is that the Think EVOs that are all over geartrade ???

http://www.geartrade.com.au/page-989.html

quote ie fenn 6 soon to be brought out by a highly questionable former great paddler as the next big thing here in australia) un quote

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potential ban from races
written by ahayden, May 28, 2007

As we need paddles to race as well, would a potential ban from a race apply depending on what type of paddle you are using?

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Treacher lost by a country mile.....
written by Bevan Manson, May 28, 2007

Just to clear the air and set the record straight... I cleaned Karl Treacher up in the swim race... and i gave him a start.

Sorry bud.

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"Is it ay..."
written by Karl Treacher, May 28, 2007

True, I may have JUST lost the swim event, but I did do all the portages. Sorry to hear that mate, looks like you were going great. Keep it up, from what I see back here it should be a serious contest in a month. Hi to your mum for me

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Be honest, It's all about making quick money
written by Martin G, May 28, 2007

I've heard from both sides and it's plain to see that these guys who blatantly copy are in it to make quick money . They have not the patience nor the scruples to design or negotiate with the original designer for the rights to build these skis, or variations there off. It is wrong and they know it but could not care less. I agree that these skis should be banned from competitions and the businesses be named and shamed. There is no excuse for their actions.

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FENN MAKO 6 - COPY ???? evo
written by COPYCAT, May 28, 2007

http://www.geartrade.com.au/files/989_3.jpg

Description:
There is a brand new ocean racing ski available on the market right now. Designed by Think Kayaks in Canada it is available exclusively in Australia through Quantum Kayaks. This is a 100% new design which was finished in January of this year. There are no other skis out there like it. Available in two constructions, glass/foam core/glass/vacumm (orange bow for glass) and kevlar/honeycomb/kevlar (yellow bow for kevlar). It is a fully adjustable ski with a single foot well for comfortable paddling. It features a long water line to enable you to chase down even the smallest of runs. Think skis are the only ocean racing brand available in Australia today which are endorsed by an Olympian, Jimmy Walker. If you want to stand out from the crowd in terms of styling and performance then think differently - Think EVO. Contact Stewart (0404 236 63 or Jimmy (0414 227 590)
region: New South Wales > Sydney East
Price: $2790
Contact: Stewart
Club/Business: Quantum Kayaks
Phone: 0404236638

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Feedback - poll
written by Rob Mousley, May 28, 2007

We've had a range of interesting feedback both on and offline and we're going to put up a survey/poll to find out what people think both on this issue and how and whether we should be covering stories like this in the future.

Surfski.info exists to promote/support the sport, not to stir up controversy gratuitously.

Please check back in the next day or two as we work to get a survey module up & running.

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Poll
written by Rob Mousley, May 28, 2007

Let us know what you think by voting in the polls on the right of the story. If there are other questions we should be asking, feel free to let us know.

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re: FENN MAKO 6 - COPY ???? evo
written by SM, May 28, 2007

We have a large fleet of Think Evo's participating in our weekly summer races and when you see it beside a Mako 6 you'll know they aren't even remotely related. I think the first thought most of us had when we saw them was it didn't look like anyone else's skis (and we like playing the design evolution game as much as anyone).

I have a V10 so I'm not trying to defend it because I have one. :-)

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written by ML, May 28, 2007

Keep popping them out DD. That's the only way we get good products in the end. Epic needs to just raise the bar, should be easy for them. Where did epic get the design on their paddles? It's called evolution.

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sell surfski at low price
written by tahiti, May 29, 2007

Epic and fenn should have low price, at same price like the copy or under.
Like this nobody will buy copy.
V10 are too expensive.

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written by Ben Hines, May 29, 2007

Did Epic do the entire R&D on their paddles or did they rely on the good work done by Bracha???

As a consumer all I want is the best product at the best price. SIMPLE.

At the end of the day 99% of the surf ski market are people 25yrs who really don't give a damn about a label or brand.

I hate to admit it but if the XLR8 is $2200AUD, the equivalent Epic is $3000 , the quality is comparable I know I'd rather walk away with $800 in my pocket.

Skis are getting very expensive and high price equipment is a big barrier to entry for people new to the sport. This is why there is such a healthy second hand market.

New sales of V10's will drop over the next year as the new batch come on the seconds market. With the high prices for skis these days? people are looking after them so theoretically their re-sale value remains good.

But hang on; you can still get a brand new XLR8, in any colour for less than a second hand V10. This is the issue, and where XLR8 will do well.

As for banning them from races. When does a new ski become a copy? 20% 30% or 70%? Will we have scrutineering of all craft prior to the start? I hope not because registration already takes to long.

Imitation is the highest form of flattery, Epic should feel honoured.

Just for the record I am on my third V10 and besides, as XLR8 won't be here in SA for a while, it's a quandary I don't need to dwell on.

Each to their own.

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written by Ben Hines, May 29, 2007

Rob,

Awesome site by the way!!

You used an analogy at the beginning of the article of Little Johnny handing in an essay and admitting it was 70% copied. Well as long as there was some form of bibliography or footnote referring to the original author then it is not plagiarism.

Well, that is what this Damian has done.

Trust me, that got me through 4 years of Uni.

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Who's complicit?
written by Chewy, May 29, 2007

Rumour has it that the moulds were actually purchased from Advantage Kayaks in Melbourne as they were the organisation that blatantly copied the Epic v10 in the first instance. Whilst its seems that they have acknowledged the inappropriateness, immoral and unethical nature of what they did by ceasing further involvement, if its true that they actually sold the mould to Daley or his interests then they too are still complicit in the theft of Epic Kayaks? IP and design? btw - who is actually making the flops now for Daley? Is it Craig Coulson on the Central of NSW as rumoured? I wonder if he really understands what he?s got himself into. Coulson was always thought of as one of the gentlemen of the industry. Hmmmmm. What a shame if he is involved. Just my thoughts.

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What can you say?
written by Scott, May 29, 2007

Rob, have to agree with you on this one. Seems that people's ideas of what is appropriate to "borrow" when making a boat varies widely. But I think if you want to borrow 70% of someone else's design, you should pay a percentage fee on your profits.

Looking at the specs, it says that the carbon vacuum-bag version weighs in at 15 kg, which is significantly heavier than my V10, which weighs around 12 kg.

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Copy all you like - it's still not the real thing.
written by GD, May 29, 2007

It's wrong - and we all know it. Tough to stop completly but the coke anology is a good one. Fenn & Epic are streets ahead and will continue to evolve with the mkt. I say go wild guys....but the truth is that the honest solid paddlers will not buy cheaper copy ski's...for the same reason we do not do it with mt bikes, golf clubs and running shoes - it's our sport and we want the best & will pay fairly for well designed & produced products. As for Epic ski's breaking all over the World...that is slander and not true. All Ski's break in heavy surf (or off the roof if you are real plonker) and to say Epic are inferior due to a Chineese 'link' is racist. I was in the industrial areas of Southern China 6 Months ago - and what struck me was just how much I was consuming - was being manufactued there. I have paddled only Fenn & Epic - and it will take a massive effort to switch me out - and most of my mates are the same. So good luck to the 'copy cat's' and the guys who are brave enough to come down to the beach with the 70% immitation on their roof. Why do't you pay the supplier with cash that is 70% the real thing as well.

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written by Hines, May 29, 2007

GD,

What do you mean by:-

"So good luck to the 'copy cat's' and the guys who are brave enough to come down to the beach with the 70% immitation on their roof"

All of the paddlers I know here in SA wouldn't and couldn't give a damn if anyone, or a mate for that matter, turned up on an XLR8. All they would be worried about is whether or not they could still beat the Ba$%ard!!!

Infact if anyone other than the local distributers kicked up a stick on the beach they'd just get told to get a life and grow up.

Paddlers aren't like that and we all know it.

As for China, our company commissioned a Chinese company to manufacture a line of our products. This decision was based on costs and quality, which was good.

6 months later the company ended our maufacturing ageement citing new commercial directives. 6 months after that they flooded the market with the product they had been making for us under another name and lower price.

I've been stung, however, our sales didn't suffer one bit. If it is that big an issue then international patents should be taken out to protect such an investment. It'll cost but the countries which Epic sells to will all have these patents available.

It's a ski guys!!!! There are alot bigger issues in life.

If it annoys you that much then just make sure you beat the person who is on the XLR8. Because thats pretty much all you can do.


I reiterate my earlier comment - I am on my third V10 (I love 'em)

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It's a Patent Problem
written by AG, May 29, 2007

The heart of the issue is that the designer is unable to legally protect their design from being copied.

Patent Law is intended to cover exactly this situation, and is intended to provide designers with the economic incentive to invest in developing their designs, while ensuring that alternative designs are not discouraged.

EPIC should be looking very closely at the legal aspects of protecting their design.

If the law gives them no protection against a 70% copy, they either need to get the law changed (impossible in practice) or happily acknowledge that the 30% originality introduced by the new manufacturer is an acceptable variation.

I've got a V10, and I'm all for designs having the right amount of protection if it will encourage further ski development. The EPIC boys should have a long chat to their legal team.

That aside, patenting designs protects profit margins for developers, so if everyone believes design protection is a good thing, they've also got to be prepared to foot the bill next time they buy a ski. You can't have the ethics unless you pay the price. That's fair, isn't it?

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written by Ben Hines, May 29, 2007

Oneoftheboyswatchingandwaiting,

According to their website the XLR8 is not made from any honeycomb product but Soric.

Soric - One of the newest boat building materials available on the market today, lending itself to a Vaccum Infusion manufacturing process. Soric has a hexagon patterned appearance. By using this as a core material we can create a stiffer and lighter boat than one with coremat and it is more durable than other foam or honeycomb cores. It gives us the best of all worlds.

Their boats apparently come in:-

SOric infused fibreglass
Soric infused double carbon
Carbon vaccum bagged
Carbon hull glass deck
Kevlar / soric

My understanding of the soric material is from the K1 area and it's the premium option.

There appears to be nothing inferior about their materials.

I own a V10.

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reply to Ben Hines - yes you are right
written by oneoftheboyswatchingandwaiting, May 29, 2007

Yes the website does say soric but as the guys from Quantum Kayaks NSW ,Steward or Jimmy said who are selling the Think Evo, it comes in a kevlar/honeycomb/kevlar contruction. This is their light weight version which can be compared to the A-grade (red seam) Epic. These are the 2 constructions i was comparing. Yes the rest of the lay-ups are fine. They use Soric like Epic. I am not meaning to slate any manufacturer nor am i biased towards a Ski manufacturer, i thought i would just let people know what i am have seen with my own eyes and what i know through working with such materials.

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Poll Questions
written by Rob Mousley, May 29, 2007

If you're not seeing the poll questions (top right of the page) please let me know. I had some trouble with them earlier and they seemed to be displaying for logged-in users only. They should be visible to everyone.
Tx.
Rob Mousley

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written by Ben Hines, May 29, 2007

Oneoftheboyswatchingandwaiting,

Mate, I am purely referring to the XLR8 using Soric like Epic not the EVO.

Sorry for the confusion.

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written by Aus Paddler, May 29, 2007

Lets face it everyone, this type of thing is going to happen frequently as this sport grows and theres nothing the major manufacturers can do about it. the only reason why Epic and Fenn are up in arms is because they were to used to dominating the market having an easy ride making a killing and charging whatever price they like, now a little competition comes along and they feel threatened and trying to use piss weak excuses to ban these boats, D.Ds. This is nothing but healthy competition which will force Epic and Fenn to find a better product for a better price.
This is not just a problem in this sport( if you want to call it a problem ), how many people out there have seen rip offs of the sprint kayak NELO, dozens of smaller brands are doing the same thing to their product, NELO dosnt complain, they return with improved products every year and terrific customer service which keeps them on top of the game. So Epic and Fenn, its time to figure out new ways to stay ahead of the game.

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COMPLIMENT
written by PARKSY, May 29, 2007

EPIC AND FENN REMEMBER THE GREATEST COMPLIMENT THAT ANYBODY CAN PAY YOUR BRAND IS TO TRY AND KNOCK IT OFF.
BESIDES EPIC AND FENN LET ME TELL YOU THAT THERE ARE VERY FEW SA DESIGNS THAT STARTED FROM SCRATCH.THEY HAVE ALL STARTED FROM AND EXISTING DESIGN EITHER FROM SA OR AUSSIE.
THE LIST IS ENDLESS.

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This is amazing free publicity for DD
written by Remador, May 29, 2007

Guys,

I too own a V10 manufactured in China. Firstly, it looks great. Paddles great. Well designed shell. Poorly designed interior. There is basically nothing in there. This raises a lot of safety concerns for me.

Secondly, mine started taking on water after the 6th time I paddled it. I was lucky because two friends had theirs take on water from about the 2nd or 3rd time they paddled them. I know that this is not a rare occurence because I tried to sell mine once and a prospective buyer told me what happened with his V10 and those of friends. He even pointed out to where the water would be coming in.

So the V10 is great if you what an ultra lite craft and you can afford to get a new one every 12 to 18 months.

I can't vouch 100% for the product that DD is producing. I haven't paddled it, but I have picked it up, tapped it all over and looked inside both hatches. It is definitely heavier. The materials are what he claims. It is a very sturdy construction and the layup was excellent. You could feel very confident in large seas and handling up to a 4 foot shore break. Plus with good care you will get several years of enjoyable paddling on it.

With regards to the guy who flopped the original mold. Rumour has it that he also received a veiled threat from somebody in Australia. Something along the lines of, "this is how businesses burn down." This weighed into his decision about abandoning the production of the surfski. If true, then that is very poor form indeed.

Regards

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written by Ben Hines, May 29, 2007

It would be good to get someone from Epic to cast their view on the whole issue.

Seems to be quite a topic?!?

With regards to Remador's comments - All 3 of my V10's have let in water, more so in rougher conditions but all from brand new. Where did he say it was coming in from because I can't find anything and I've spent many hours trying. Mind you so did my Fenn. Don't all skis do this to some extent?

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Ben Hines - getting feedback from manufacturers
written by Rob Mousley, May 29, 2007

I've written to Damien Daley (again) to ask for his side of the story. (I've emailed him twice before with no response.)

I'll also get a response from Epic on some of the points raised in these comments.

I've also asked Hayden what they think & I'm trying to get some comment from some of the other manufacturers.

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Re: Crap Above
written by Ash Nesbit, May 29, 2007

GUYS just get on with paddling and enjoying the sport - if Epic or Fenn have an issue with DD or anyone else for that matter they will be sure to find out.

The sport of Ocean distance paddling is great at the moment "banning skis from races what a load of s**t" the sports not big enough for a start. Lets just embrace the sport and not worry about this stuff...And i sell Fenns!! And i sure i will continue to

Lets just hope for more down wind paddles - im still stuffed and struggling to write and read this s**t after paddling the channel!!

Heard $300K US on Molokai World Championships next year - lets hope the big O comes up with the $$. That would be huge for the sport!!

Regards to All my SA mates.

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Not too smart!
written by Chic, May 29, 2007

Wasn't Tommy Woodriff the bloke that did the wrong thing by Dean Gardiner and Keith Fenn a few years ago by flopping the Fenn to produce the OzFlyte Scud? It actually looked nothing like a Fenn but managed to cause a huge rift in the paddling community in Sydney. Nothing good actually came out of it! Now anyone that still has one of those skis may as well sink it, because they're well and truly worthless. I wouldn't be surprised if the XLR8 suffers the same demise. Clearly you need some business acumen and commitment to be successful and support a customer base. Good luck to anyone that dares buy XLR8's flop.

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They're all the same in howling downwind runs!
written by Chris Bond, May 29, 2007

Here here Ash Nesbit for your comments. Just briefly my thoughts. Everything I have paddled in a 30 year career has been a derivation of some kind of a design that had preceded it. The best points of each leading craft find their way into later models of many manufacturers. Rightly or wrongly, a lot of open slather and pirating of designs will continue to go on. I paddled an Ozflyte Scud in the last Molokai I contested in 2002 and for the record it held all its air and didn't take a drop in that crossing. However I also do not agree on face value with the 'cheekiness' of flopped copies. I purposely now paddle a brand (original design) which is neither Fenn nor Epic purely because I am over all the hype and talk-up when what we should all be doing is enthusiastically racing regardless of what make of surf ski we sit on.
Next year when we (hopefully) have howling tailwind runs in the Molokai it will not matter what brand, what weight etc the boat is because my belief is it all averages out in those (magnificent!) conditions.
This current top-end brand hype gets humbled when you remember Dean Gardiner holds the Molokai record from many years ago paddling a Burton Ocean Racer!

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Dean's record/downwind boats
written by Rob Mousley, May 29, 2007

Sadly Dean's record can never be broken because the Molokai route is now about 8km longer.
The record for one of our local downwind routes is held by Jasper Mocke on a Custom Kayaks Titan spec ski...

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$US300K on next year's Molokai??????
written by Remador, May 29, 2007

That would be awesome. With 12 months to prepare....maybe that could entice some of Australia's current crop of ironmen to compete. e.g. Zane Holmes, Shannon Eckstein, Caine Eckstein, Tim Peach, Nathan Smith. And a few retirees could mix it up too. e.g. Jeremy Cotter, Ky Hurst. Throw in a few of the 'masters'. e.g. Trevor Hendy, the Mercer brothers, the Kenny brothers'& Clint Robinson.

I'm not saying that any of the above would win it. The only prediction i would make, is that it would be a hell of a race for the Top 20 positions and would keep Rob Mousley very busy with his live call. It would be the race of a lifetime! I don't think too many of our international friends have had much exposure to our younger elite athletes. Which is a shame. Because the South Africans are doing a good job of putting on the events with prize money.

BTW Ben Hines. My water was coming in around the venturi. A slight crack (almost undectable) was the culprit. I don't how the crack got there. May have been from putting on the roof racks. The ski was never put on a hard surface, nor did it have any impact with anything. Anyway, it is an easy fix. Apparently, the other place some take water is where cord runs from the pedals into the ski. This is another fix.

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I cant belive it
written by Jelly, May 29, 2007

Well done surfski.info and well said Ash as I am a Aussie batler like many others in this sport I cant belive some of these comments after looking at Damiens web site and then looking at Epics site maybe Epic should have looked at spending some of there R&D funds on a web site to inform people of there product. We all know many products we use today are a copy of one thing or another. I am in the market for a new ski and reading the comments I would be investing in the ski that can supply the after sales help and durabilty. Dont get lost in the copy cat crap lets get on with our paddling and build this sport up like SA has done or would that be copy cat crap.
Good on ya DAMO go Aussie Go & keep yah chin up mate

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Copy what Copy
written by Joseph 666, May 29, 2007

Being about a bit in the surf ski world the only gripe some surf ski builder may have would be the guy who put the first one together prob in Australia, most all the ski's I would get from S.Africa and the U.S 18 years ago came from some OZ ski.

There is not much further any one can go to change a ski if they want to be able to sell them to some one other than the top 10 in the world so we detune them sounds better than steal, there was a 10/20% thing about years ago and when I worked at a SurfSki shop then it was called improveing that Ski every on has done it what is the big deal, with out it we would still be driveing Mr H. Fords Mod A in the u.s.a. and paying 8 cent's a gal for gas.

We do understand the guy who spends the big buck's would not be happy you must understand EPIC is not just a maker of a Surfski as some builders are, and when it comes to the bottom line I would think it be Kayak sales at Epic and being every new age Kayak today looks about the same how can anyone bitch about a copy?

Cheers Joseph

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Enforce your patent
written by SEAMORE BUTTS, May 30, 2007

Do epic have a patent on the V10 ,if so enforce it.If not bad luck.Design and IP are copied every day it is up to companies to protect it.As for stopping them from entering races you guys must be kidding.What you have done is expose xlr8 to many who otherwise may have never heard of it.Keep the agro for your paddle on race day and remember to smile as you pass me.Regards Seamore.

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Rowing 2000
written by Olympic silver, May 30, 2007

I don?t see what the problem is>
XLR8 is only benefiting every participant in the sport. Without this competition there would be no on going innovation. It would appear that Epic has had a monopoly until XLR8.
Look at my sport of rowing and the technology available for athletes at the right price. Cleaver oars sliding seats Kevlar boats> without this competition the consumer is being ripper off, paying to high prices to a manufacturer who has not funded innovation. Imagine if e-mail was around in Henry Ford?s day.

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written by Van Der Merve, May 30, 2007

Despite what the poll suggests, it appears from the responses above that most of us don't really give a crap.

Basically what XLR8 are doing is responding to consumers who aren't willing to or are unable to drop $3000AUD on a ski. They are offering them a viable alternative for a discount that most people won't ignore.

Basic rule of economics - supply and demand.

At the end of the day our sport is far too small to ban skis from races? Infact that?s almost childish.

I understand and acknowledge the issues at stake here but ultimately the only people it really matters to are Epic and XLR8.

Both of whom are wise enough to remain silent on the issue.

I received an e-mail from a good friend in Australia and he reckons these XLR8's are a fantastic ski well made, super tough and more importantly a bargain compared to the alternatives. (He paddles a Fenn6).

He also mentioned that no one he knows (apparently a large group of paddlers in Sydney) could give a damn if one of their peers brought one. Infact a couple of them have and the only reaction they get is that of curiosity (the same seen when the Fenn6 appeared). Not one of vilification or ridicule, infact he reckons most Aussies would be fear being ridiculed more for kicking up a stink and opposing the XLR8.

He could not think of any reason why someone wouldn?t consider buying one.

He also mentioned that the Aussie paddling community is far less highly strung than that in SA. I didn't know quite how to take that?

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part of the game
written by US paddler, May 30, 2007

Sure, I feel bad for the company that spends a lot of cash for R and D. But, to assume that pirating and copying doesn't take place in the world is not very wise. Epic was smart to put some R and D into the V10 - and it paid off in brand equity and customer loyatly. If they put too much cash into R and D for the V10, one might say that it was a poor business decision - and companies that do too much of that aren't around for long as they can't make ends meet. In the end, Epic (or Nelo, or . . ) need to make quality and customer service the reason to pay a premium for their skis.

The marketing guy had a very good point, but the surfski business might not be as brand loyal as the Nikes, Cokes, etc. In either case, Epic is a bigger company, is setting up worldwide distribution, and has brand equity. Their company is worth something. DD's company is worth next to nothing.

The R and D money is in the hull shape, so you could flop the hull, make your own deck and claim only 50% copying. Better to say what amount of the hull was copied, rather than the % of the whole ski, right? I'm not sure where to draw the line with flopping hulls and selling only locally, or in a better layup, etc.

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ZERO LIFE
written by Karl Treacher, May 30, 2007

One thing is for sure. All this talk isn't helping anyone paddle any faster. SO BORED. The politics of the world's smallest sport. People are starving and dying and we are crapping on about essentially nothing. Notice how the only people that this matters to (Epic & XLR have not participated.

Now go float around somewhere.

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written by kurt tutt, May 30, 2007

While everyone is here just letting you know that There will be a new ocean ski race in byron bay sept 29th. Gunna be an 18km, (gps measured 17.3) course. Downwind, rocks, waves etc. Just looking for some more sponsors currently and then we will be sending out promotional material. Send us an email if interested This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it . Everyone welcome, you'll enjoy it

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Quantum Kayaks
written by Stewart O'Regan, May 30, 2007

Hello All,


Quantum Kayaks is the respresentatives in Australia for the Canadian brand, Think Kayaks. It's very exciting for us to be able to bring a new ski onto the market, one that is a new design and which is of the highest quality.

If anyone would like to discuss the Evo ocean racing ski, feel free to e-mail me at This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it

The Evo is a one of a kind ski, it is a brand new design. Only the best honeycomb is used in the production of the 12kg, kevlar, honeycomb, kevlar model.


Kind Regards,



Stewart O'Regan
Quantum Kayaks

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written by Johann van Blerck, May 30, 2007

Funny how the advocates of "Just get out there and paddle" have read all the way down these posts themselves!

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written by Johann van Blerck, May 30, 2007

Regarding race bans, i'm not in favour but would entertain the idea of excluding "Flops" from results where the type of ski is mentioned. The paddler would be included in the result with no mention of ski type.

There is more and more demand for ski types to be included in race results and it has to be a powerful medium for manufacturer exposure.

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Intellectual Property
written by Tom Thring, May 30, 2007

Car makers don't make exact copies of each cars, because they spend a fortune on lawyers protecting their IP. Surfski and kayak manufacturing is a really small industry and protecting IP by legal channels generally just can't be justified.

I think any sort of regulation by race organisers would be just too controversial.

I think naming and shaming copiers through surfski.info etc. should be encouraged. The more this happens, and the more people take note, the less the cost to the industry and to paddlers in the long run (Think about legal costs if Epic took DD to court.)

Just because copying is legal (assuming Epic haven't registered their designs), doesn't make it right. People like DD should negotiate a licence with Epic (as an SA manufacturer has done), or develop their own ski. Epic should be fair about this - I don't believe a low volume Oz manufactured ski would be a major threat.

Tom, Cape Town, South Africa

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Athlete
written by john merrick, May 30, 2007

Hey Tutty , is that the Think EVOs that are all over geartrade ???

http://www.geartrade.com.au/page-989.html

quote ie fenn 6 soon to be brought out by a highly questionable former great paddler as the next big thing here in australia) un quote




Lats, the above post is in reference to Nathan Baggley, the athlete who served a drug ban and is now in trouble with the law regarding narcotics. Bags (as he is lovingly referred to) is now importing skis and has NOTHING to do with this new Evo ski.

Hope that clears it up for you.