Nelo Ocean Ski for flat water: beginner

Hello, guys

I've been an avid reader of this forum and finally have decided to ask for Your opinion.

I am planning to buy a Nelo Ocean Ski L to paddle it purely on flat water. It seems that there is general agreement that this is a very good ski for that (the seating position and height, the narrow catch). This choice comes also from the opportunity to buy a nearly new boat at half the price.

What makes it tricky, is the fact that I am a complete beginner

I am 30 years old, 183 cm (6 feet), 86 kg (190 pounds), about 15% body fat. I started kayaking in June 2015 to learn to surf breaking waves on the beach, using whitewater and slalom kayaks. By now I have a decent eskimo roll and can brace in the break with confidence. I usually paddled about 5-6 times a week, when the water was above 10*C, so one may say I have a lot of enthusiasm. I've also been out on a couple of autumn/winter surf sessions with more proficient paddlers and can imagine what is going on.

As stormy weather does not come along too often in summer, I decided to try K1 sprint. I tried paddling an old (1980's, very stable) German K1 some 5 times with constant bracing and swims, yet was able to paddle it with some success for some straights (with the seat in). It was truly a great sensation to feel that freedom and comfort of the sitting position. At the same time the fact that a beginner would be tied to the launching area because of the risk of swimming and the need to empty the kayak, put me off the idea to buy a K1.

A flat water surf ski seems like the perfect solution (you swim and immediately hop on the ski and paddle on). It also allows to paddle further away from the launching area, making it much more fun. I understand the dangers of remounting in cold water, but this will be offset with the proximity of the shore and remount training. My main wish is to train and also participate in K1 events (3-10km), where allowed.

My main question is, having paddled such tippy surf skis on the flats and having seen others do it, do You think it is doable to learn paddling a Nelo Ocean Ski within 3 months with 5 times a week practice taking into account my background? Or is still gonna be super hard to paddle it over 10 km/h average due to the stability issue? Is it worth it to pay 3,5k euros to buy a new Vajda Orca or V14 Performance instead?

Looking forward to Your advice

I think on flat water you'll be fine - paddling 5 x a week I suspect you'll get used to it (albeit on flat water) within 3 months.

On the ocean it might be a different story!

But I'll be interested to hear what others say.

Good luck!

Hi,

I come from a sea kayak background and have traveled a similar route.
If your goal is participation in K1 events, then a surfski generally is not a legal boat to use (at least here in the Netherlands).
I would try to find a boat that fits the Danish touring boat class. These are 51 cm in width but do comply with K1 regulations. They are an ideal step up to narrower boats. I used a Zedtech TT for a year, and now paddle a Kirton Tor (masters K1). The speed difference with narrower boats is not large. I am hardly faster in the Tor than in the wider boat. Main disadvantage of the touring boats (to me al least) is that they are difficult to handle on a wash, so when you train in a group that can be an issue. This may also be due to weight, as with 75 kg I am quite light for a lot of boats.

Be careful with the definition "stable" for old German boats. Many of the DDR sprint boats are far from stable. I am more familiar with British boats, and e.g. the Rapier and Javelin are quite stable old K1s that can be mastered, but from the same era a lot of boats a far less stable.

If you go for a k1, make sure you get a boat that fits your weight. A large boat will fill tippy when you are too light.

Two good links with K1 stability information:

www.norwichcanoeclub.co.uk/public/kayak-stability-ratings/

www.kajakinfo.dk/Kapkajakker (in Danish, but google translate is your friend)

Regards,

Merijn

Merijn, thank You for the answer!

I looked at the table with K1 stability ratings and read the translated rules of K1 competitions.

My initial post was a bit misleading.. I am not planning to compete in the K1 class on a surf ski.. We quite often have group starts where everyone paddles together or within certain intervals and then different boat classes are nominated separately. I just want to be able to compete with K1 guys on a surf ski in terms of time and speed (for instance, the sub-athlete category and masters paddle at around 12 km/h on 3-5 km distances; I would like to be able to compete with them).

Also I have definitely decided that it's going to be a surf ski, not a kayak - neither sprint nor sea. A good friend of mine is pushing for my going the Epic 18X way - it being fast and rollable, but it's not the way I wanna go..

I asked a guy on the internet who wrote a nice review about the Nelo Ocean Ski and he advised me to buy an intermediate surf ski like a V10. His argument was that even if I can get used to the stability issues, I may develop a bad technique (hunched back, low hand position etc). I am not that afraid of that, because I will get the support of the sprint kayak coaches.

My main concern is that Nelo Ocean Ski is said to be much more unstable than a V14, so I am afraid that I won't be able to paddle with force even after months of hard training. Another reason for this research is, that I won't be able to sell the ski, as it is very rare here that anyone buys a surf ski - if I discover it's too unstable, I will have to keep it and buy another one

The Nelo L is more stable than the Epic V14 - this without doubt, having tried both.
To answer your original question, I would also be careful: depending on your current ability level, the Nelo L might still be "too much" of a ski right now. Aside from developing poor paddling habits, you then have to spend years unlearning these poor paddling habits.

It's always wiser to start in a more stable ski, work on technique at slower pace, and work your way up to a tippier boat ever 6 months.

Thanks for the reply

Could You expand on the stability issue a bit: how would You compare them in terms of primary and secondary stability?

Here is a link to a review by a paddler who owns both: surfskipaddling.com/tag/review/; and he states: "For those who haven’t owned one and coming from one that has owned and paddled all three – the Epic V14 is sort of equal to the Nelo Vintage and pretty stable compared to the Nelo Ocean Ski."

This was also my main concern with it being too unstable. I am pretty confident that I could manage a V12 in 3 months on flat water and I feel that way because of my brief, but rather pleasant experience with the old sprint kayak (see photo).

I would love to read some comparisons about how unstable it is (how twitchy it's gonna be in terms of primary). I'd hate to constantly battle wobbling even if I manage not to capsize.

Compared to the V14, the Nelo L has (in my opinion) a much better seat - as far as comfort. Aside from the comfort, the Nelo L is quite a bit wider (more stability) but its seating area is higher (less stability).

Primary Stability:
The Nelo L seemed to have more primary stability - probably because of its width as mentioned above.

Secondary Stability:
The Nelo L also comes out ahead on secondary stability, mostly because the V14 has a little more speed with its more rounded hull.

When you compare the two hulls, the one thing you will notice is how the older Nelo L has a small but noticeable "flat" area.

All above feedback is for "flat water" paddling.

In the ocean, the Nelo L seemed more twitchy to me, but this may be due to the following:
The V14 has a much longer rudder stock - which adds stability with speed.
The Nelo L has more volume, AND I am way too light for the Nelo L.

Either way, neither ski is not recommended for entry level or intermediate paddlers as they will both mess with your technique. In the worst case scenario, your technique will just take longer to get better. Here and again, it somewhat depends on your determination and athleticism.

I've never paddled an EpicV14.
I own a carbon Nelo Oceanski L and a carbon Fenn Elite.
The Nelo has good stability on flat water. In the Ocean it becomes another boat... even the old Millenium is more stable.
The seat on the Nelo is way too high. As photofr said, it's comfortable on flat water but it's a real handicap when in rough seas. I'm actualy thinking seriously of modifying my Nelo by dropping the seat area as down as possible or even trying to put a Fenn seat in it (note to photofr : I weight 88kg).
But on the first post you said you're going to paddle it only on flat water, so I'd say go for the Nelo. Just stay away from big waves and have fun.

Thanks, guys! That's exactly the kind of info I wanted to find.

to Photofr: are we talking about Nelo Ocean Ski in size Large? I thought that Nelo Ski L is 42 cm wide (www.neloski.eu/boat/ocean_ski_l), which is less than Epic V14's 42,9 cm (www.epickayaks.com/product/product/epic-v14). And by saying old Nelo, do You mean before and including 2011?

to Hiro: Yes, flat water only. I live in a city with several protected water harbours, so long swells are difficult to find - I don't have the courage to paddle that far out to reach long waves. It seems a good idea (at the moment) to play in the break when there are waves and paddle on flat water when there's no wind. The seat height and paddling position of the Nelo ski was what made me look for one, as the K1 seat was really nice and I want to replicate that as closely as I can find in a water-tight hull.

Reading about this ski made me think that it is something of a no-stability-at-all monster. As I will be under the supervision of K1 coaches, I am not concerned about developing a wrong technique. I was just nervous that this ski is so unstable (poor primary stability) that I will stay wobbly forever.

To answer your questions:
Yeah: the one I tried was a 2010 Nelo L - and it's still for sale.
To be fair, I didn't measure the Nelo, but didn't measure the V14 either. The Nelo "feels" wider, but the seat is definitely higher off the water.

From experience, the Nelo L will feel more stable (primary stability and on the flats). The most important thing in my opinion is that the Nelo L has a flat area on the hull (lacking on the V14 which is why the V14 may be faster on flats).

How the boat will feel for YOU is very subjective - all I know is that I personally would never place a beginner paddler into a V14 (unless, for some really odd reason, I wanted to totally discourage them from ever paddling again).

I know that's not what you want to hear… but I am calling it how I see it. Your paddling experience, ability to pick up sports, and shear determination to succeed may just be the ticket.

Dear Photofr,

I really appreciate the input and in no way I feel discouraged or anything like that.

I agree with You completely and I think that in other circumstances I would have done exactly that - gotten a V10 Sport or similar.

The thing that makes me confident is the support of our paddling club, where I can make a reasonable progression of boats of various stability and coaching from professionals to reach the level of paddling a average masters level K1.

I have decided to get a flat water K1-like surf ski and from my web research I've narrowed the choice to Vajda Orca, Nelo Ocean Ski and Epic V14. From various reviews I had got the feeling the Nelo is much more unstable than the others and would be a problem even when I had decent skills. Now I know that it's not that bad and I will give it a shot.

I will try to make a thorough review of my progress, once there is some success with this boat

Secrets of the trade = that there are several ways to make ANY surfski feel very stable in flat water.
Let us know on your progress, but if you feel that you are struggling too much with your Nelo, just drop us back a line.

Either way: you are getting into surfskis not because you hate the water, so don't feel bad if you fall in a few times. In the end, it's always a lot easier to get back into a ski than a K1 flat water