Is surfski or K1 faster?

7 years 11 months ago #14685 by timberjack
Is surfski or K1 faster? was created by timberjack
Hi,

I am wondering, is K1 or ski faster in flat conditions, when paddling long distance, say 10K or longer?

My own experience is, there is no real difference, maybe K1 is a bit faster especially when water is not that deep.

Opinions?

kari

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7 years 11 months ago #14686 by Kayaker Greg
I am told by people that paddle both that K1 is faster by about 1 km/h, others say not so. :unsure:

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7 years 11 months ago #14688 by AR_convert
My experience in marathon racing is there isn't anything in it.

The K1's do seem to have a better ability to accelerate when attacking but having done many races between 18-28km's the lead pack will be made up of K1's and ski's.

I have just bought a K1 to see for myself and to see how much can be gained from a more upright seating position (feet below seat).

It appears that's the way Nelo have gone, the Uno Max has a higher than feet seat and from what I've seen of the pics the new Epic V14 is built that way too. Looking forward to trying out these new flat water skis this summer.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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7 years 11 months ago #14689 by zachhandler
Someone needs to build a 21 foot k1. I imagine its been done.

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7 years 11 months ago #14692 by Traut
Replied by Traut on topic Re: Is surfski or K1 faster?
Good day fellow paddlers - my name is Ian Trautmann, I come from both a K1 and surfski paddling background - and I would like to share my views on this topic.

Essentially your defining statement of asking which is faster, a k1 or a surfski? - is very broad and should be refined. The reason I say this is that all displacement hulls have an optimum speed based on displacement( i.e. mass of paddler and craft ) - and waterline length. There is an article on this site that explains variations in mass (displacement)vs waterline length. The k1 boat is governed by the ICF - and cannot be longer than 5.5m ( or something close to that) - therefore it becomes an inefficient boat fo a paddler of over 85 - 90 kg. Surfski design has a lot more scope for designing craft for different mass, as there is no limitation on design - and specifically waterline length. This explains why a 110 kg cannot be efficient in a K1, and as a result this paddler will be much faster in 6.5m ski. and likewise any paddler below 85kg will probably be faster in a k1, only because you could make a K1 much lighter - but they could have the exact same below waterline design, therefore essentially they would almost be the same. So in a nutshell it is all about your weight and waterline length , the key is to find the boat that best suits your mass i.e displacement. Hope this answers your question. Traut
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7 years 11 months ago #14693 by Rob1
Replied by Rob1 on topic Re: Is surfski or K1 faster?
I'm 85kg's, over a 5km course I'm on average around 1.20 minutes quicker in a k1 than a ski.

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7 years 11 months ago - 7 years 11 months ago #14694 by Traut
Replied by Traut on topic Re: Is surfski or K1 faster?
Hello Rob1 - your claim is probably based on the fact that you are comparing your K1 to a "surfski" - essentially what I am trying to say is that if you weigh less than 90 kg ( or there about ) - there will be know difference - as the ski designs are so vast. So as an example you could even find a ski that will have exactly the same waterline design as a k1 - and then there would be no difference. The question " is a k1 faster than a ski" isnt really valid! - as the ski design is evolving as we speak. One aspect that is a given is that if you weigh over 90-95 kg - and paddle a fast flat water type ski - like a Fenn Glide, Think Uno , Nelo - you going to be much better off than a K1, just ask Sean Rice.

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7 years 11 months ago #14696 by kayakchampeen
I think that this question can be answered 2 different ways. Firstly though, I'd like to point out that "Hull Speed" as a fuction of L/D or L/B is in the case of an overpowered K1 a VERY soft threshold, owing to it's greater prismatic coefficient and lower wetted surface area. 200m paddlers go WAY BEYOND the ostensible "hull speed" as predicted by wave making resistance for a 17' boat.
If someone asks the question "which is faster?" the answer is easy.
Top speed on a K1 with a world class paddler at maximal intensity is much greater that what is even achievable on a ski. Note that I said world class paddler and said nothing about duration. It's very taxing to paddle a K1 at top speed, so obviously mere mortals will be faster over a 10k course in a ski, where they are able to relax and find a rythym they can maintain for an hour or two. Yet this does dot mean the ski is faster, just means that most people would be faster in a ski over a longer race..The time trial bikes tour de france riders use in the TT stages are obviously the fastest, but they use more comfortable, versatile geometries for the 4hr mountain stages and wouldn't think of taking the TT bike....
So to recap, when I think of speed, I think of outright speed at maximal intensity. Any other metric of relative boat speed that tries to involve submaximal effort over distance is not a question merely of speed, but efficiency and comfort when technique goes completely to hell after grinding away for 2hrsl. I'm interested in which boats are fastest, period! not the ones that I could more readily paddle for hours on end; Because I don't intend to paddle for hours on end..If someone posts footage of themselves clocking a 33 sec Olympic 200m time on a ski then maybe I will have to revisit the question, but I'll be waiting a long time for that to happen
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7 years 11 months ago #14697 by owenw
Replied by owenw on topic Re: Is surfski or K1 faster?
In the recent NSW Marathon (flat water - 20Km) series the quickest paddlers were in K1s. However for longer classic flat water races (eg Hawkesbury Classic - 111Km) the skis were king this year.
In the Classic the quickest time by a single paddler was set on a V12 at 8.18.19 whilst overall it was a K4 at 8.11.53. The long standing record, set back in 1985 was 7.11.07 in a K4, whilst the record for a K1 is 8.29.28 set back in 1996.

Life truly lived is full of risk; to fence out risk is to fence out life itself
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7 years 11 months ago #14698 by timberjack
Replied by timberjack on topic Re: Is surfski or K1 faster?
How about the situation, when same paddler goes the same distance, say more than 5K and if the conditions are about the same?

My own opinion is, if medium level paddler, speed difference if very small(if you can paddle both type of boats). But if top class paddler, ski or K1, speed difference is quite significant.

Medium level paddler can´t use properly the speed of K1, because it is so unsteady. But if you are top class paddler, you are in your best it that type of boat you are using most of the time.

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7 years 11 months ago #14699 by kayakchampeen
I would say that's a pretty accurate assessment timberjack. There are guys like Hank Mcgregor who are top flite in both craft if the race is grueling enough. Certainly many surfski pros are very competent in both craft. And the longer the race, the more a surfski would be advantageous. For the above average paddler (anyone who can even manage an elite K1) it's about a toss-up for a medium distance race 5k-10k, maybe even for anything longer than 2k. I'll bet Barton could still turn a faster 10k in the K1 though. (He probably is still world-class at this distance if he had the time or inclination). It is possible to imagine an 18.5-19 foot K1/SKI HYBRID sort of like a Nelo Sea Vanquish that would better either craft over a flattish medium distance race.

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7 years 11 months ago - 7 years 11 months ago #14705 by Traut
Replied by Traut on topic Re: Is surfski or K1 faster?
Hello - most of you guys are discussing a topic that is not based on relativity. Let me explain for the sake of this discussion what I mean : when you ask is a surfski faster than a K1 - then we need to define what a surfski is. Essentially a ski is just a sealed craft - i.e it cannot sink - and has NO design limitations (length). I can design a ski that has EXACTLY the same waterline profile and specification as 200m sprint K1 - and it can weigh less than 10kg, so in this case the K1 and "this" ski would be identical - so the the statement of "which is faster" needs to be qualified. hat is important is finding the right boat according to your mass - that applies to K1 and surfski designs. The advantage with ski's is that there is no length limitation - therefore some designs ( longer )allow a heavy paddler be "faster" than he would have been in a limited length K1 - BUT this only applies to the heavy - i.e over 95kg + paddler. Cheers - Traut

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7 years 11 months ago #14706 by AR_convert
The great thing about this topic Traut is that many of us are learning from discussing it. I have learnt that my 90kg weight will most likely be faster in a longer length ski than a K1.

I am looking forward to getting my new K1 in the water this weekend and doing some testing alongside my Flash and seeing just what speed difference there is for a given heart rate.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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7 years 11 months ago #14710 by kayakchampeen
I was thinking more of a traditional 21ft ocean ski v. a Nelo ICF K1. But I can understand Traut's way of looking at it, where there is a continuum of design from 5.2m upwards, and the only feature discriminating between ski and kayak is the cockpit or lack thereof. Which makes me pose two additional questions. Do ICF rules explicitly mandate a cockpit or else prohibit a K1 that was sealed like a ski but otherwise had identical hull and ergonomics? If the rules don't speak directly to this then I'm surprised that most Olympic k1's are not washdeck/SOT K1s. I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't be.
Lastly, would it even be fair at that point to call such a boat a surfski, from a semantic point of view? Racing ski's are already
far enough removed from Spec/lifeguard Skis actually used in the surf. The name surfski still creates confusion among some with waveskis which are craft that truly surf breaking waves in the sense that a surfer would recognize. I submit that a boat even further removed from ocean swell as to be essentially a flatwater K1 in design (even if it's a foot longer) would need to be called something other than a SURFSKI, despite it's sealed cockpit form; if only to do justice and give more legitimacy to ski's/paddlers that are riding downwind in a sea state.

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7 years 11 months ago - 7 years 11 months ago #14711 by DougMar
Hey KayakChampeen...
The k1 geometry is such that it allows for a lighter-weight structure than does the fully enclosed surfski-type structure. Also, no k1 paddler worth more than his/her wing would want the non-adjustable cockpit/seat of the ski. A large variety of stock and custom K1 seats and foot plates allow the micro and macro adjustments and fit of the paddler to the craft, allowing for differing pitch attitudes for various water depths, etc., as well as differing vertical seat settings, enabling more efficient power transfer, etc.

But then, you know all about that. :)

The SOT/surfski cockpit/bucket that was designed for rough water safety would severly reduce the adjustability of the flat water k1.
KayakChampeen... give me a call!

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7 years 11 months ago #14713 by AR_convert
This thread has just reminded me about a strange boat that showed up at one of our training sessions in the middle of the year.

It was very low volume ski, in fact it was so low volume it was being swamped by anything over 1 foot.

Apparently it was made by using the hull from a K2 and putting a ski top on it. It was made for our premier downriver race the "Avon descent".

May need to follow up with it's owner and see how it goes.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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7 years 11 months ago - 7 years 11 months ago #14714 by owenw
Replied by owenw on topic Re: Is surfski or K1 faster?
.

Life truly lived is full of risk; to fence out risk is to fence out life itself

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7 years 11 months ago - 7 years 11 months ago #14715 by owenw
Replied by owenw on topic Re: Is surfski or K1 faster?

AR_convert wrote: This thread has just reminded me about a strange boat



Talking of strange boats, in this year's 111Km overnight Hawkesbury Classic, here is Tom Simmat's purpose built craft. It measured into the Short Rec 1 Kayak class (Lmax 450cm, Bmin 58.5cm, Bw/l 53.5cm and having no rudder). It looks like a cross between a short ski and a Stealth Fighter aircraft. It easily won its class with a time of 10H 35Min 24sec, only a couple of hours slower than the quickest skis.

Life truly lived is full of risk; to fence out risk is to fence out life itself
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7 years 11 months ago #14717 by jamo
Replied by jamo on topic Re: Is surfski or K1 faster?
great photo owenw

good to see someone thinking outside the square like to see it perform in the ocean.definetly ticks some boxes for me.

you wouldnt have his contact details by any chance or be able to get them?

also you forgot to mension he was in the 60+ group as well

thanks jamo
(sorry where in the wrong thread guys)

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