Is surfski or K1 faster?

7 years 3 months ago #14736 by owenw
Replied by owenw on topic Is surfski or K1 faster?
Jamo - I am not a personal friend of his therefore I will not openly advise on his private details. However, he is a legend in the Sydney area kayaking circles, won the NSW Veteran Athlete award 2011, won the Yukon 1000 a couple of years ago and is a member of the Lane Cove River Canoe Club. (Try Google.)

Life truly lived is full of risk; to fence out risk is to fence out life itself
The following user(s) said Thank You: jamo

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7 years 3 months ago #14756 by lakesurfer52
Hi
In the usa and canada there are many 6.5 meter kayaks racing regularly.
Sprint kayaks and surf skis are prsent at most flatwater type Races.

Top speed is limited any way. Ian's posts are very accurate.
For a medium guy with little paddle experiance or a old geezer like me 60. A ski or longer kayak is much more comfortable and relaxing. I have all kinds of Time trials with both. Except for very short 200, 500 the skis are very close in performance in flatwater.

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6 years 7 months ago #18178 by Um...
Replied by Um... on topic Is surfski or K1 faster?
I'm not so sure about some of the above responses...

I coach a sprint team, but am mostly a ski paddler myself. I currently paddle a V12 Ultra. It seems pretty obvious to me that a K1 is substantially faster in flat water. From personal experience, I would say that my V12 is at least 30 seconds slower in a 2K (probably closer to a full minute). That would obviously increase to several minutes over a 10K. A K1 gets off the line quicker, it accelerates quicker, and it runs longer with each stroke. No debate, in my mind. If a ski was faster, that's what they'd be paddling in the Olympics. A ski may be faster in chop, but that's mainly a balance/technical thing. Plus a ski gets on top of the wave, while the K1 tends to nosedive. The only way a ski is faster is in a downwind, and it rides wake better.

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6 years 7 months ago #18180 by Traut
Replied by Traut on topic Is surfski or K1 faster?
Hello fellow paddlers, you guys can save yourself a lot confusion and read the detailed paper written by an engineer regarding this discussion. The critical element in trying to evaluate this comparison is the mass of the paddler, which you are not doing.
Based on calculations using displacement hull shapes, the waterline length of a K1 limits efficiency as soon as the paddler's mass goes over 85 kg. So here it is - if you weigh 85kg a k1 waterline length is optimal length, but if you weigh 105kg - you need a longer waterline length to allow similar drag coefficient. There are so many different ski's on the market now, that some may even have the exact below waterline dimensions as, say a Nelo k1, and in this case there would be absolutely no difference ( same weight as well). Hope this helps.

Regards

Traut


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6 years 7 months ago - 6 years 7 months ago #18182 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Is surfski or K1 faster?
One of my ski paddling training partners switched to K1 last year and while it took him a good 6 months to start to see good speed he reckons now he is faster.

Another one of my ski paddling buddies (Mark Hardie) has also made the switch to K1 and is flying.

I am waiting on my new K1 to arrive as I have decided to join the big boys in the K1 class this marathon season. I guess time will tell how I go. It will interesting to compare last seasons and this seasons results.

One things for sure, it is much harder to paddle a ski on the wash of a K1 training with these guys now.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned I was getting a K1. I bought an old cleaver maxi but couldn't get it to go faster than my flash ski. I then lost interest.

Recently I was challenged by a few of the better ski paddlers who still race downwinds but are now racing K1's in our marathon series. As that's were the competition is I decided to give K1 another shot. I tried a buddies new K1 and was surprised at it's speed and stability.

Traut wrote: One aspect that is a given is that if you weigh over 90-95 kg - and paddle a fast flat water type ski - like a Fenn Glide, Think Uno , Nelo - you going to be much better off than a K1...


I should do a time trial at my present 92kg in my ski then see how that compares to 85kg in my K1 (and yes I can afford to lose that weight :P )

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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6 years 7 months ago #18183 by ErikE
Replied by ErikE on topic Is surfski or K1 faster?

kayakchampeen wrote: Do ICF rules explicitly mandate a cockpit or else prohibit a K1 that was sealed like a ski but otherwise had identical hull and ergonomics?


For the olympics, yes. The rules ( www.canoeicf.com/dms/icf/documents/Rules...202013%20Final-2.pdf ) says:

"8.5.1 The boat to be designed as to be a sit-in (Kayak
type) not a sit-on (Surf Ski type)"

Then on to "Um..."'s satement that "If a ski was faster, that's what they'd be paddling in the Olympics." Without taking any stance on the question on which is faster, I want to point out that before you jump to any conclusions on the fact that surfski's aren't used for sprint racing in the olympics, you have to take into account that if anybody did that, he'd be disqualified. Or to see it from a somewhat different angle: If you have a craft that adheres to ICF's rules for a sprint kayak in the olympics (<= 520 cm long, conventional kayak cockpit), you would probably have some difficulties in finding anybody willing to call it s surfski :-)

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6 years 7 months ago #18184 by Kocho
Replied by Kocho on topic Is surfski or K1 faster?
Interesting paper, though not innovative at all and full of errors, it appears... Basically confirms what has been said decades ago using software available off the shelf. Look at the values for the frictional and wave making resistance in tables 3, 4, and 5 starting on page 29. They are clearly suspect: for one displacement they go up with length, for the other they go down and generally don't make sense when compared to each other... How can one trust the overall results based on such apparently bogus numbers that contradict statements made earlier in the paper and are inconsistent between the three tables?

Traut wrote: Hello fellow paddlers, you guys can save yourself a lot confusion and read the detailed paper written by an engineer regarding this discussion. The critical element in trying to evaluate this comparison is the mass of the paddler, which you are not doing.
Based on calculations using displacement hull shapes, the waterline length of a K1 limits efficiency as soon as the paddler's mass goes over 85 kg. So here it is - if you weigh 85kg a k1 waterline length is optimal length, but if you weigh 105kg - you need a longer waterline length to allow similar drag coefficient. There are so many different ski's on the market now, that some may even have the exact below waterline dimensions as, say a Nelo k1, and in this case there would be absolutely no difference ( same weight as well). Hope this helps.

Regards

Traut


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6 years 7 months ago #18185 by sAsLEX
Replied by sAsLEX on topic Is surfski or K1 faster?
It will be interesting to compare this for me as well, I am selecting a K1 this weekend after giving a few a test paddle to get built, a ten week wait will seem like years!

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6 years 7 months ago #18187 by lost john
Replied by lost john on topic Is surfski or K1 faster?
Do ICF rules explicitly mandate a cockpit or else prohibit a K1 that was sealed like a ski but otherwise had identical hull and ergonomics?

ICF rules (from 2011 at least) say this for "Kayaks":
8.5.1 The boat to be designed as to be a sit-in (Kayak type) not a sit-on (Surf Ski type)

A pet peeve of mine, as it makes it hard for masters (I mean old people) to learn to paddle competitively in sprint, as they need a suitable safe area to train or have a safety boat along.

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6 years 7 months ago #18221 by jhstevens3
Replied by jhstevens3 on topic Is surfski or K1 faster?
k-1 has to conform to the rules. Look at the longer marathon kayaks like the Thunderbolt, Mohican, the West Side Boat Shop Kayak designes. They have longer hulls but near K-1 type profiles to get better glide between strokes. K-1 would still be faster for sprints but for marathon flatwater these work better to help avoid balance fatigue.

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6 years 6 months ago #18392 by ElRicho
Replied by ElRicho on topic Is surfski or K1 faster?
Aside from the hull speed etc, I have always paddled the K1 substantially faster. I think this is largely due to its ergonomic set-up. They are far less restrictive than most skis.

The seat in my K1 is at least 2 inches higher than my ski. Even if the ski hull is faster I can put way more drive into my K1 thus making the engine more powerful.

Having said that, I don't paddle the ski when its calm cos I can't see the point in it (bar pure technique stuff). Skis are cool when its rough and K1's cool in the flat. B)

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5 years 10 months ago - 5 years 9 months ago #20779 by photofr
Replied by photofr on topic Is surfski or K1 faster?
I paddle boats (I mean both).
Being that I am 53kg, and not very tall (1.68m), my results may be very different from other neighbors.

K1 - flat water
Much faster acceleration
Always "feels" faster - more "nervous"
Glides way better (I can see this clearly when I stop paddling)
Faster on the 200m, 500m, and 1km
Slower on the 10km courses
Way fun in the ocean - Kamikaze Fun !
Much more comfortable seating position (feet are much lower)

Surfski Spark (Fenn)
Much faster in the ocean
Cannot be compared downwind - obvious
Surfskis are the fastest human powered crafts in the world - or are they still?
Faster on flat water over longer courses - might be my personal limitations due to stability issues on my K1

With today's advancements, it would be very interesting to see the following:
A K1 sit on top - with the EXACT same hull as my quattro, and exact same seating position. This would make a "safer" and easier boat for people to get into and feel safer. Learning to balance will no longer feel like a drag (dragging the boat back to shore). This may be a great choice for many, expect for the elites who like to move their seats. Perfect boat for certain flat water paddlers.

Another new design for the ocean that I would like to see:
A much shorter Spark surfski for the ocean (say 5.5 meters instead of 6.44 meters), with a wider rear (say 45cm) for more stability in the super rough seas, WITH a much higher seating position (similar to what I find in my quattro). I believe this combination will give the paddler an immense amount of power, while remaining comfortable enough to paddle much longer distances.

To those of you who have a soar leg / soar back / soar butt… a higher seating position will usually fix "all of your problems" - or most.

Clearly, the above "new" surfski may only be suitable for much lighter paddlers - thus a pretty closed market - and this may be why one hasn't been produced yet.

You have to admit though, that this 5.5 meter surfski would be extremely lively in the ocean - and even if slower, it will prove to FEEL MUCH FASTER.

Ludovic
(Brittany, France)

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5 years 9 months ago #20987 by Mako
Replied by Mako on topic Is surfski or K1 faster?
There's no doubt in my mind that Sprint K1's would be longer than they are if there was no length rule.

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5 years 9 months ago - 5 years 9 months ago #20988 by Physio
Replied by Physio on topic Is surfski or K1 faster?
.

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5 years 7 months ago #21474 by fb_696716004
Hi all long time lurker here/ first time poster - I was racing my Stellar SE (disclosure - I do a bit of distribution/ sales for Stellar in NZ - so ping me if interested!) but I spotted that several of the top paddlers in the race, including the winner had these SK1 .

My background is K2, K1 and Surf ski, and I would be really interested to try one of these. Thought people on this thread might be interested! Its obviously not going to be of interest to the hardcore surfski paddlers or anyone in big sea, but for flat water and anything up to grade 2 (i.e. multisport conditions) it looks like it might be the best of all worlds - a K1-esque boat with the length of a ski. Not for the faint hearted I would guess - would be interested to see where it sits on the stability spectrum.

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5 years 7 months ago #21475 by robin.mousley
Hmm... interesting boat - the blurb talks about remounting, but I would suspect it would be pretty tricky getting into a cockpit like that in the open ocean...

And NZ$5,000 is not for the weak hearted either! US$4,200....

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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5 years 7 months ago #21477 by Physio
Replied by Physio on topic Is surfski or K1 faster?

fb_696716004 wrote: Hi all long time lurker here/ first time poster - I was racing my Stellar SE (disclosure - I do a bit of distribution/ sales for Stellar in NZ - so ping me if interested!) but I spotted that several of the top paddlers in the race, including the winner had these SK1 .

My background is K2, K1 and Surf ski, and I would be really interested to try one of these. Thought people on this thread might be interested! Its obviously not going to be of interest to the hardcore surfski paddlers or anyone in big sea, but for flat water and anything up to grade 2 (i.e. multisport conditions) it looks like it might be the best of all worlds - a K1-esque boat with the length of a ski. Not for the faint hearted I would guess - would be interested to see where it sits on the stability spectrum.

It is a k2 shape hull so yes very tippy and quite quick on the flat, I have seen a number of these and the build quality poor, very flexy I know of one that snapped in the harbor on Dunedin, not in surf. But a cpl of very fast paddlers use them.

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5 years 7 months ago #21479 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Is surfski or K1 faster?
Not the first to come up with this concept but I like that our Kiwi friends are giving it a crack. Would love to see a full blown reveiw on one here on surfski.info.

Maybe they could send one over for the Worlds Largest Adventure race (Augusta Adventure Fest) with the NZ pro team (Sam Manson, Olly Shaw and Emma McCosh) as their secret weapon against the Aussie and South African teams. I could sneak in a reveiw while it's here?!

Surely they can afford the space on their website for more than one photo :huh:

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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5 years 7 months ago #21481 by richardh
Replied by richardh on topic Is surfski or K1 faster?
I'm pretty sure that Ash Nesbit has paddled a custom surfski, based on a K2 hull, in the Avon Descent

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5 years 7 months ago #21482 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Is surfski or K1 faster?
Richard I've seen a few custom made ski's as you say with K2 hulls specifically for the Avon. I like that this manufacturer has decided to take the idea and make it commercially available.

While as I mentioned the Mohican has been around for years they haven't been available in Australia.

I'd love to see someone with deep pockets get hold of one of these kiwi ones and see how it goes in some of our ultra events like the Murray Marathon or Hawkesbury.

I have been experimenting with boosting the seat in my ski for a couple of years now and for long races I love having the K1 position in my ski,(can boost it by 7cm) but what would make it even better is the K1 type seating.

Very keen to see what sort of seat they have in this new boat, I know the Mohican has the option of ski bucket or K1 seat.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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