Should I or shouldn't I buy a new V10?

5 years 11 months ago - 5 years 11 months ago #18445 by Kocho
I'm not sure I understand Kemi's comment either, but I feel that one should setup the footboard as close to the paddler as possible, while achieving as full of a leg extension as possible. What this means is simply that, if I move the board one notch further forward, the underside of my pushing leg will start to hit the hump, thus interfering with leg drive. If I set the board one notch closer to me than ideal, then my legs would not fully utilize the [already limited by the hump] potential for leg drive and rotation.

I don't see how pushing with the balls of the he feet vs. the heel changes any of that, other than where the board is positioned to allow the paddler to utilize their legs fully - the rotation is still limited by the hump, which in the V10 I feel is a bit higher than necessary, even for someone like me with very long legs.

If you check out my technique video (bad form and all) you will see the maximum leg drive I can currently eek out of the V10. It might be possible to rotate even more than I do, but not sure it would b practical for normal paddling. I'm getting it seems about 6"-7" of vertical movement in my knees, with heels glued to the foot board...

kemi wrote: I have logged around 3000 Km flat water in a V12. This boat have a seat height 12 mm and no hump. So nothing to interfere with leg drive, so I adjusted the kickboard for full leg extension. I was very unstable and the boat was to hard to paddle, it took me awhile to figure out, that I needed to get my legs up, to get into a decent paddle position. Once I did the balance issue went away and I could paddle without stopping all the time. The V10 has a seat height of 10 mm, so it has the same feature. So unless you're built to handle that, you need to do the same as me and then you can forget about the K1 style with legs pumping up and down because they will be way to bent to do that. That is the price for a low seat. I have extended my kickboard, so that I can push with the ball of my feet, to get a little bit around the problem, otherwise I would go crazy in that boat in no time.

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5 years 11 months ago - 5 years 11 months ago #18448 by Kocho
I'm still confused by Kemi's latest explanation...

When most of us talk "leg extension" we mean one leg extended in the full push/torso rotated position at the end of the stroke (the other leg is quite bent in the same moment). We don't mean both legs extended when determining the footboard position.

When you sit in a ski, facing straight forward, your knees are bent quite a bit. Even if there was no hump, your legs would still need to be bent - you would not be able to do effective leg drive otherwise.

Your pushing leg straightens-up during the power phase of your stroke as much as the hump would would allow when you push with it and rotate your torso and bum in the seat. While in the same time your other knee goes further up from where it was - as much as almost 90 degree bent in a K1, less bent than that in a ski due to the more restricted rotation possible in most skis due to the hump and the lower seat.

You should never sit with your legs straight even if there was no hump - if you start with both legs straigh, you have no leg drive... Perhaps it is the same thing you are saying, but that's kind of a very basic position setup that I don't think anyone on this thread is doubting or not doing.


kemi wrote: If you are sitting on the floor with your legs extended, you would feel most comfortable leaning back. In order to lean forward comfortably, you would have to bent you legs. Being in a comfortable forward position is a plus, because that would put you out over the water and that is where you want to be. As for stability, what I felt when I raised the kickboard, was that the boat was more free to do what it wanted. Like my ass had become a ball and the boat could roll under that. Another benefit from my new position, is that now it feels natural to look strait ahead. I have always had to look down to apply power.

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5 years 11 months ago #18449 by kemi
What I was trying to say is, that I have seen a lot of K1 race footage. When I bought the V12 I tried to imitate what I saw in those videos. After an excruciating amount Km and experimenting I found out that there was no way I could paddle it like that. It works for me in a boat with a 70 mm seat height, but to my big surprise the V12 only had a seat height of 12 mm. The guy asking the original question asked about getting used to a lower seat height and to put it short : That transition for me was brutal and not worth the pain.

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5 years 11 months ago #18451 by Wally
Not sure what you are on about Kemi. If you are good enough to paddle a boat with a 70mm high seat what are you doing on a V10, the V14 should be your ski of choice, but then I see you have to stop paddling due to something small like your leg position, I am confused! (how do you measure the seat height anyway, I can promise you the V10`s and V12`s seats are both much higher than 12mm)

I can paddle quite comfortably with my knees bent as much as a sprinter in my V12, or any other ski, but don't as I want my legs as low as possible to reduce my center of gravity for good stability, as mentioned before by someone, under power I extend my leg till it just touches my calves, as for pushing with your heals, no brainer, how else were you doing it?

I suppose you also push pull on your feet! If not why? Sprinters strap themselves onto their foot boards, or have solid straps to hold themselves in for this push pull, with swivel seats as well. Look at good ski paddlers like Tim Jacobs, his stoke is slightly different on a ski compared to when he was sprinting.

I am even more confused when you have to look down to get power, what are you on about? All this because of your leg extension!

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5 years 11 months ago #18454 by Jerry
Replied by Jerry on topic Should I or shouldn't I buy a new V10?
Hey Wally

When are we going to see the new V10L ?

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5 years 11 months ago - 5 years 11 months ago #18462 by kemi
There are stable boats out there with a high seat for instance(Nelo viper 55). The boat I spent a lot of time in was a Citius 51. I live in Denmark and where I paddle there can be a strong current and we also have a sluice where things go crazy from time to time. The water is pretty cold most of the year and a Citius 51 can be a bitch getting back in, so when I read all the glowing reviews about the V12 I thought it was the answer.

The seat heights I got directly from Epic after I bought the boat:( The V14 has a seat height of 20 mm.

To me it sounds like Newbflat come from the same environment as me. That is why I chipped in, not because I wanted to rewrite the manuals on how to paddle. When I got my V12 I had an idea that I would be fast, that did not happen. Over 2 years and 3000 km I have been fighting this boat and I am not happy about it. I am nobody special, just a guy that read some reviews and bought a boat based on them.

My problem was that I wanted to lean back in the V12, so I had to fight to stay in a forward position. I found out that for instance looking at the epic logo(my definition of looking down) helped keep me forward. But I had to fight for it and that was just to hard for me. So I just wanted to stop all the time.

I did not say there would be no leg drive, just that it would not look like the leg drive in a K1 with a high seat.

I have this picture of Big O doing the Molokai last year and just look how bent his legs are.
Attachments:

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5 years 11 months ago #18466 by jamesb
Replied by jamesb on topic Should I or shouldn't I buy a new V10?
They say a clinched fist should fit comfortably under a bent knee as an indication of the ideal leg length. I get plenty of extension and leg drive using this guide. The longer the extension the more stability, Oscar doesn't count because he is a freak ;)

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5 years 11 months ago #18467 by Ranga
That is absolute rubbish! Who worked that one out? What if you have a big hump as opposed to a small hump, your leg extension will be totally different with that example. So depending on what ski you have your leg extension will be different!

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5 years 11 months ago #18468 by jamesb
Replied by jamesb on topic Should I or shouldn't I buy a new V10?
Well I guess most of us can only extent to the limit of the hump....so the distance is relative in all cases I suppose.

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5 years 11 months ago #18472 by Stew
Ranga is absolutely correct, the fist under the knees is a totally misguided and incorrect method of determining correct leg length. It's an old wives take, probably from the ages when skis were all totally flat. Please delete it from your thinking! :)


When I help people set up a new ski, I tell them that they need to feel tight enough to be able to drive the heal into the foot plate, yet long enough so that hip rotation isn't compromised.

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5 years 11 months ago #18474 by Kocho
However, it just so happens, that a big fist under my knees, for me, in my ski, seems to be just about perfect. So, the old wife's tale, right or wrong, is spot on :) Of course, if the hump height and position are different it would not be the case...

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5 years 11 months ago #18475 by Stew
A quick peek at the first minute of your technique video, I would beg to differ.


Either way, the suggested method does not take into account the hump height, foot plate angle, torso length, leg length, flexibility of paddler etc etc. Far to many variables.

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5 years 11 months ago #18476 by Newbflat
Ok.... The OP here. This is becoming a tiresome and pointless hijacking of my post.

The correct measurement is one small to medium turnip under the leg. If that's not working try a rutabaga...... There, settled. Now let's move on.

Bill.

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
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Epic V10 Double (performance)
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5 years 11 months ago #18481 by therookie
Agree :)
Should you buy a v10?, yes you should. I have had one for 6 months now. I came from a Sport with no stability issues upgrading.
I have 2 paddling buddies who have done the same, one from a Mako 6 and he is enjoying not having to concentrate so much. And another from the old v10. He says the new 10 is faster and more stable than the old. and overall we are all significantly faster!! Our other paddling colleagues will reluctantly testify to that.

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