Epic rope lines vs Think steel lines

6 years 7 months ago #19828 by Abel
What is better? Epic rope lines or the Think steel lines. I would think the steel would be better and if so why would Epic use rope. I am not venturing far off shore as of now but if I do, I would prefer the strength and durability of steel.

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6 years 7 months ago #19829 by sAsLEX
Heard of rust?

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6 years 7 months ago #19830 by Abel
yes of course rust. but wont steal last longer on the long term.

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6 years 7 months ago #19831 by PaddleFaster
Ropes made of special fibers such as Dyneema are usually slightly stronger than stainless steel rope of the same dimension.

On my skis, I have come up with a technique that allows me to install and use an American size of 7/64 Amsteel Blue, Dyneema, which is slightly thicker than the standard stainless cable normally used. It has a breaking strength of 1600 lbs, 730 kg.

The stainless steel line often used is rated at around 450lbs, 204 kgs for the thinner line used, or 1080lbs, 490 kgs for over-sized.

Also, if you use your boat on a frequent basis, saltwater corrodes and breaks down the strength of the individual stainless steel wires and causes failure significantly faster, often within one season, than the synthetics. I have had stainless lines break on me twice by end of the season. I have never had a synthetic line break on me in the same time frame, or ever for that matter.

But I do change the line right before every new season. It costs under $20 U.S> to do so , so it makes sense.

The SS will give you better feel with rudder response, but it's lack of stretch can also cause mechanical components to wear significantly faster.

The one flaw of the synthetics is if they run over any rough or sharp edge, they can fray easier than the SS and break as a result.

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6 years 7 months ago - 6 years 7 months ago #19832 by Sandy
Qpower spectra (used for kite lines and spearfishing reels) was what Think used on the two think skis I had. It is probably a little more abrasion resistant and less stretch (=more responsive) than the braided dyneema. The Qpowerline has a core of strands with an outer sheath (like a kernmantle climbing robe, although designed as static line rather than braided shock absorption)It is pretty stiff and easy to run through rudder line tubes. Will be replacing the SS lines on my Huki with it when they start showing a little rust.Didn't realize Think had switched to SS lines , wonder why ?

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6 years 7 months ago #19833 by mckengmsurfski
"Didn't realize Think had switched to SS lines , wonder why ?"

We are the Think distributor for the SE USA and to my knowledge Think has not switched to SS lines, and will continue to use the proven Q Powerline Spectra rudder line that has proven itself in Think skis for many years. I can only assume that if someone has a Think with SS lines they were swapped out aftermarket, but I'm not sure why you would do so as I have found the Spectra line to be great.

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6 years 7 months ago #19835 by Jmuzz
That Dyneema rope is as strong as cable of the same thickness, so there is no risk of it snapping while in good condition.

Cable rusts from the inside out, so the deteriation is not obvious until it snaps. Any sign at all of external rust means it is probably gone on the inside and needs replacement.

Any fraying of the rope will show on the outside so its easier to judge need for replacement.

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6 years 7 months ago - 6 years 7 months ago #19844 by Newbflat
You can make single braid Dyneema rope a bit better to use with preloading before installing. The material itself stretches less that stainless rope but the way it is braded allows some compression/ elongation when new and lightly loaded. If the rope is never loaded with a significant amount of weight it won't pack down and stay, It just kinda springs back. If you load it before you install it you can pack it down and eliminate the "stretch" people experience. You can use a come-along or just tie it to something and get a couple of people to hang one it. It will reduce in diameter a bit, become harder and stay that way. Small sailboats use this material and braid all the time and this is what they do to get rid of the "stretch" ... Which is really just packing the braid. Q-Powerline doesn't have this ishue as it's parallel core line... Nice stuff. Still, Dyneema works well if packed by preloading and is cheap.

Bill

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)
The following user(s) said Thank You: zachhandler

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6 years 7 months ago #19845 by Ranga
I replace S/S cable on a regular basis as a ski repairer, usually snapped already, very seldom do I get a customer who just wants them replaced as a precaution, to their detriment a little later down the line!

Dyneema will outlast any S/S cable, many times over if fitted correctly.

Generally it is cost that makes the manufactures use what they use, Dyneema or Spectra is much more expensive than S/S cable. It is also stronger and lighter than S/S cable. Show me a million dollar racing yacht or a skydiver who puts his life on the line that uses S/S cable!

Also as a safety aspect I still have yet to successfully tie a knot in a snapped S/S cable!

I personally have not had the spectra stretch like others have mentioned and have a very solid rudder feel, what most people are maybe feeling is that S/S cable does not sag when you slack off on the peddles. Also if the internal tubes are not fitted properly you will get a spongy feel. Yes sometimes, depending on the manufacture the first use might stretch a millimeter or so, you will have to measure it before you start paddling to detect this initial stretch.

However there is a caveat on this, you get what you pay for! certain manufactures in a rather large country tend to make what they call Dyneema, but it is actually shock cord, beware!
The following user(s) said Thank You: Fuyang Guy

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6 years 7 months ago #19846 by PaddleFaster
To me, the synthetic lines have a softer feel and a slight bit of give as compared to the feeling of stainless steel...

Not so much an actual stretch, but definitely a softer feel to the rudder pedals.

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6 years 7 months ago #19847 by Stew

Abel wrote: What is better? Epic rope lines or the Think steel lines. I would think the steel would be better and if so why would Epic use rope. I am not venturing far off shore as of now but if I do, I would prefer the strength and durability of steel.


Think Kayak have never fitted stainless steel lines on any of our skis, ever. Just to clear up any confusion.

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6 years 7 months ago #19848 by Rookie
Hi I changed my lines on a dorado (Kayak Centre) and I wish friends would change their lines in the Zeplin to SS as every time as you press on the peddle the rope slips and you end up with no steering. It drives me crazy! are we using the wrong rope for lines

Focus, Apex 2, Zeplin

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6 years 7 months ago #19849 by Jmuzz
Probably not wrong rope, since Dyneema is fairly silky slippery stuff and others have no problem. Probably just how you are securing it.

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6 years 7 months ago #19850 by fredrik
I have had 3 thinks and 3 fenns. No doubt that the think pedals feels more flexible. If it is not the dyneema lines, which I read is stronger than ss, then it likely to the slack from a knot in the stern, threading the line through 3 holes in each pedal and the plastic connection with 2 knots inside. A sole ss cable clamp behind each fenn pedal should provide less flex than 3 threads, two knot and plastic connection.

Nevertheless I fail to see how one os better than the other- just different in my mind. Eg. the positioning of the pedal and the rudder shape may be more important and may be a contributing factor to the soft think feel.

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6 years 7 months ago #19852 by Ranga
A few tricks to secure the Dyneema, a bowline knot will not come loose, but if you do not know how to do that you can either use a bit of needle and thread and stitch the knot together or a drop of superglue to secure the knot.

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6 years 7 months ago #19857 by owenw
Superglue on the knot is an easy and excellent way of securing any knot (even "grannies") - this has been a little tip I picked up years ago and has never failed.

Life truly lived is full of risk; to fence out risk is to fence out life itself

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6 years 7 months ago #19898 by ergometer
You have mentioned great information. It really helpful for me.

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6 years 7 months ago #19919 by andy y
dear paddlers re this topic ---can anyone give me advice regarding replacing rope lines on a ski ---i have replaced steel wires and their 'natural length wise stiffness' has made this procedure relatively easy
any tips for threading rope which will not have this same structure? ---many thanks andy y

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6 years 7 months ago #19920 by antonsa
Splice the rope onto the end of the old steel cable a nd pull through. Or use a lead wire - steel trace wire used for fishing works or piano wire. If tubes are clean and in good condition the rope can be sucked through using a vacuum cleaner.

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6 years 7 months ago - 6 years 7 months ago #19921 by Kayaker Greg
If replacing rope lines with rope just sew the new line to the old with a few threads and pull through.

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