Millers Run Leaderboard

5 years 11 months ago #21268 by CoastPop
Hi

We at Fish Hoek Beach Sailing & Surfski Club are wanting to institute a Millers Run leaderboard for members with trophies for fastest male, fastest female, fastest male on handicap, fastest female on handicap to be awarded each year at the AGM. Rules still to be drawn up but basically all runs to be recorded on either smartphone or GPS and uploaded to a site such as Strava? Now comes the tricky bit, how to come up with a handicap system? Time divided by age? Would this work and be fair? Your thoughts and suggestions very welcome. Any comments you might have also appreciated.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

5 years 11 months ago #21272 by antonsa
Replied by antonsa on topic Millers Run Leaderboard
I would not worry about handicap - just have age categories (like CSA). Also be nice to know wind speed and direction of each run.
The following user(s) said Thank You: CoastPop

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

5 years 11 months ago #21307 by robin.mousley
I agree with Anton, don't worry about handicaps, rather do age categories.

Record:
  • Name
  • Age
  • Make and layup of ski eg Think Evo II Hybrid carbon/glass
  • Conditions (ideally)

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

5 years 11 months ago #21316 by CoastPop
Replied by CoastPop on topic Millers Run Leaderboard
Thanks guys for your input. Obviously my first take was to go with age categories as is done with the series races that we have here in Cape Town. However, that leaves quite a few categories, and the older categories are totally overlooked. Also, all females (I think) are lumped together, no age categories here. Added to the complication is the fact that SUPS have expressed an interest as well , then we add in doubles. The system I am thinking of is Surfski - Top Male, Top Female, SUP - Top Male, Top Female, Top Double and then the rest on Handicap. This is catered for in the following doc from Aus www.vic.canoe.org.au/site/canoeing/vic/d...0Points%20System.pdf . I think this could work for the Handicap group. I am confident that we can come up with system but there will be challenges to get it right and if all realise that it won't be perfect at the first attempt, over time we should end up with a reasonably fair system. I think it is worth a try?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

5 years 11 months ago #21320 by robin.mousley
Hey John,

I think the handicap thing would be very interesting, but I'm much keener to see how I do in my own age group (Master!)

On the other hand, my paddling partner Dale would be very happy to factor in age on the handicap system!

Perhaps have one ladder based on handicap for everyone, and other ladders for the age categories?

More work I know!

Cheers
Rob

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...
The following user(s) said Thank You: CoastPop

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

5 years 11 months ago #21322 by CoastPop
Replied by CoastPop on topic Millers Run Leaderboard
Hi Rob - Do you have an idea of age categories? I know the series races lumped everone over 50 together - a bit unfair seeing as me being 69 in a couple of months time gets lumped with 50 year olds. Sherbert, I was 19 when they were born - I could have competed against them then lol. Having said all that, all this is w.i.p so all suggestions welcome.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

5 years 11 months ago #21324 by robin.mousley
I think it's something like:

45-49: Sub-master
50-54: Master
55-59: Sub-Grand-Master
60-64:Grand-Master
65+: ? Sub-Great-Grand-Master?!

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

5 years 11 months ago #21356 by gwynnd
Replied by gwynnd on topic Millers Run Leaderboard
I have been thinking about some of these issues. I have developed a surfski ladder for Durban paddlers. See durbansurfski.com or durbansurfski facebook page for details.

If you want to have a PERFECT handicap system and you take into account age, conditions, boat, years experience and training, weight, feather angle, leg/thorax ratio, what your spouse said to you last night etc you know what will happen. Everyone is equal! ;)

Jokes aside, if you do this well and collect enough data, the ski builders will be very interested in your stats.
Another simple gift you would be able to deliver in time would be a 'condition co-efficient'. If you knew your average time in flat conditions you would be able to predict what you should be doing in pretty specific downwind conditions eg 14kn with a certain fetch and period. This might simply be of use in deciding whether you are using the right ski for said conditions.

As regarding the age handicap. In Durban we have a old man called Lee!

Or you could use age category flat water world records and get one of your mathematically minded fellows/gals to draw a curve for you. Block age categories are simply rubbish from a stats point of view, although easily understood and practical.

PS Please have a Visitors Category!

Well done. To borrow from our sailing brothers - I like the cut of your jib!
The following user(s) said Thank You: CoastPop

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

5 years 11 months ago #21358 by CoastPop
Replied by CoastPop on topic Millers Run Leaderboard
Thanks Gwynnd. I have had a look at www.durbansurfski.com/2014/07/04/the-bet...race-scoring-system/ but the link in the blog "here" returns Page not found. The problem I am facing is that the Millers run is not your typical series race. Paddlers do it at different times and under different conditions - there is no organised race that all participants do at the same time. I guess that the handicap rating will never be perfect and I am hoping that paddlers don't take it too seriously, but I am hoping to use this upcoming SE season to try it out and see what we come up with. Thanks again for your input.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

5 years 11 months ago #21361 by richardh
Replied by richardh on topic Millers Run Leaderboard
Perhaps a golf style handicap would work as it designed to work with different golf courses and what the golfer could achieve.
A handicap is established after a few paddles with a 'conditions rating' weighting factor (like the golf course rating).
If a paddler beats is handicap, the handicap is reduced condierably and if a paddler is over the handicap, it is adjusted slowly.

Rob and Dale are likely to have enough data to see if this could work.
The following user(s) said Thank You: CoastPop

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

5 years 11 months ago #21377 by Robmobius
Replied by Robmobius on topic Millers Run Leaderboard
Hi Coastpop (from ikiteboarding.com days?)

I am responsible for www.durbansurfski.com

I have checked the links and all seems ok

www.durbansurfski.com/surfski-ranking/
www.durbansurfski.com/rankings-by-race/
www.durbansurfski.com/2014/07/04/the-bet...race-scoring-system/

These are direct links to all our content on the subject. It may not suit your needs perfectly but I strongly suggest discussing this with gwynnd (David Gwynn) The man has a serious gift for the subject matter at hand. I wager he has the solution, having worked with him myself.
The following user(s) said Thank You: gwynnd, CoastPop

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

5 years 11 months ago #21379 by CoastPop
Replied by CoastPop on topic Millers Run Leaderboard
Hi Robmobius - Yep, the same CoastPop. I will follow up with David - Thanks

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

5 years 11 months ago #21380 by CoastPop
Replied by CoastPop on topic Millers Run Leaderboard
Gwynnd - have you had a look at

www.vic.canoe.org.au/site/canoeing/vic/d...0Points%20System.pdf . ?

Your thought / comments?

Bear in mind this is for the Millers Run and not for the series races.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

5 years 11 months ago #21385 by Robmobius
Replied by Robmobius on topic Millers Run Leaderboard
Coastpop, stoked to see I am not the only kiter to add paddling to my quiver. We have kited many hours together, in the mid noughties.

The links u posted are dead?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

5 years 11 months ago #21391 by CoastPop
Replied by CoastPop on topic Millers Run Leaderboard
Robmobius - Yep, them kiting days were great and I am now enjoying Surfski almost as much. Apologies about the link - I just tried www.vic.canoe.org.au/site/canoeing/vic/d...0Points%20System.pdf and it worked. It took me a while to understand the system so I applied it to a couple of Downwind Dash races - the series of downwind races held from Milnerton to Big Bay which included singles, doubles and a heck of a lot of SUPS. The results I got look promising although the SUPS fared badly on the handicap system but waxed it in the heavy blows. The system needs some work but it is a starting point.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

5 years 11 months ago #21414 by CoastPop
Replied by CoastPop on topic Millers Run Leaderboard
Hi Rob Mousley - I just came across this dating back 8 years: www.zprocon.com/races/africa/story/639/g...s-run-challenge.html

How did this pan out?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Latest Forum Topics

SpaceSputnik's Avatar

Sit bone pain (8 Posts)

7 hours 57 minutes ago

Is Surfski Super Tippy? (22 Posts)

8 hours 8 minutes ago

Boat length - interesting analysis (6 Posts)

9 hours 34 minutes ago
Protected by R Antispam