Umbral's Thread...

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6 years 2 months ago #25749 by andis
Just get a V7...

I am sure you can find a slightly used one close to your budget.
Even a heavily used one will be very considerably better than the boats you have listed.

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6 years 2 months ago #25751 by robin.mousley

To administrators of this forum.
Enter code here does not work on Firefox, it is not visible ! Do something about it please.


Thanks for the heads-up...

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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6 years 2 months ago #25752 by andis
Then buy something else.

I am under the impression that Think may have contracted a UK company to build their own copy of the V7. Perhaps look into this?

I never considered the construction intricacies of my "less expensive" kayaks. I own a couple of V7s, amongst many other boats - 5 surfski, 2 sea kayak, 3 SOT - and I can tell you that they are very effective.
Very very durable, fast (for their specs), stable and a lot of fun. Very versatile too given their large cargo capacity; to the point of having eclipsed my sea kayaks - which have either oil canned (tupperware) or weigh a ton (fiberglass).
The V7 appears to have been made out of a sandwich plastic foam. They are not as heavy as some of my seakayaks & SOTs but more rigid.
They cost €900ish in holland.

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6 years 2 months ago #25755 by Spacehopper
Andis - interesting comment regarding the V7 capacity. Do you not have two foam bulkheads either side of the hatch that severely limit storage - or did you remove them?

Umbral - not quite sure where you're going with this. The other kayaks you mention are way wider than the V7. The stability question is down to the individual paddler...only you can answer that one.

If price is your major consideration then arguably the Scupper Pro / RTM Tempo is a good bet - less wasted waterline than the Disco (no silly sea-kayak style ends).

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6 years 2 months ago #25757 by andis
No bulkheads. A foam stringer between rear deck and hull abt 15cm wide. All the rest is free space.
I concur to scupper pro being a great boat! Have owned and enjoyed one for many years. Very stable, but painfully slow after the v7s...

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6 years 2 months ago #25758 by Spacehopper
Interesting - all the ones I've seen have the bulkheads (not necessarily well attached either...). Have Epic changed the fit-out perhaps?

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6 years 2 months ago #25759 by photofr
That is like one of the funniest (and saddest) posts I have seen in a while.
There are some good points, but I'd like to elaborate on couple of things:

PRICE
You want something fast, safe, but you don't want to spend money?
500 or 600 euros will get you a boat that will be much heavier, and slower than any known surfski in the world. The 500 euro kayak may not even have a rudder, so I don't see how that will be safe "no matter what the weather".

V7
I don't want to take any side on a particular manufacturer here, but probably suffice to say that 900 to 1400 euros is actually a great price for a "plastic boat" with a rudder – like the V7. I do believe that you may be mistaking, because if a V7 was built in China, it may cost as much as 1900 to 2400 euros. If it were made in France, it would be more like 2200 to 2600 for the same V7. The truth is that you are right: the V7 probably doesn't cost more than 200 euros to make, but you obviously have no concept of R&D (all the research, testing, designing, and implementation of machinery) involved in the process of just coming out with the very first V7.

Let's just say that you'd probably want people to sell you a V7 at 750 euros, but YOU would never EVER allow someone to buy a V7 from you for 750 or 800 euros.

Last thing on plastic boats (that I personally wouldn't necessarily paddle) - HDPE is a super flexible material; they may have some pretty good reasons to not make it 100% HDPE.

RUDDER
Do you realize the importance of having a rudder, especially when undertaking such a trip? With all respect, I highly recommend a rudder system for your safety. None of the 3 kayaks that you have mentioned have a rudder system, and a kayak with a rudder system will always cost more!

RECOMMENDATIONS
Well, your trip sounds interesting. It would be nice to know where this venture will take place, and to know more details about you and your abilities. On the other hand, here are a few recommendations:
- Find a surfski that you feel super stable paddling in the worst of conditions, then find another one slightly more stable. If you do not feel comfortable enough on a V7, don’t even bother with surfskis.
- Ideally, you will find a surfski that matches your stability and skills.
- Alternatively, you will have to look for a wider kayak in the 55-65cm width range, WITH A RUDDER.

I am assuming that you already know how to paddle, and that you have experience in the ocean. I am also assuming that you can paddle with ease a distance of no less than 35 km in one go.

Someone hinted at this... but here we go:
Personally, I can stay in the ocean without paddling and very comfortably in some of the worst weather imaginable – on a ski that is about 43cm wide. That probably doesn’t mean anything to anyone... and is completely irrelevant. What is far more important is what surfski YOU can seat in without paddling in the worst weather.

I hope your dream venture isn’t shattered, but your safety must be No. 1, price of the boat probably last on your list. Find the ideal boat, then look at prices.

Ludovic
(Brittany, France)
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6 years 2 months ago #25760 by Fath2o
Sorry Umbral, and at the risk of being rude,
I'm surprised anybody here is even taking this post seriously.
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6 years 2 months ago #25768 by robin.mousley
Hello All!

Please a moderator clean the forum of the off topic spam and people who are aggressive with new forum users and provide no real knowledge but spread only hate and irony.


That's not good news... I try to have a very light hand with moderation and bannings... I think I've only ever banned one person off this forum!

Usually the folks on the forum have robust debate, things flare up then they die down again, no harm done...

However, there is a cunning little link at the bottom of each post that says "Report to Moderator" - I've not had any of these so I'm assuming that although heated, things are ok.

I dunno - I generally just ask people to play nicely. I run the site with a very light hand these days - it does have real cost though and I suppose I should rejig it so that it earns some income from advertising (don't flame me guys, I know some people have tried to get me to do this and I keep dropping the ball).

So please - I love the sport, I've met very few paddlers (even some of my US friends who disagree emphatically with me on subjects like politics and guns) that I don't like. This forum and site is run as a kind of service to the community, so I'd ask that guys please use it in spirit that it's provided.

And I guess - if things really get bad, use the Report to Moderator thing and I'll take action.

Thanks!

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...
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6 years 2 months ago - 6 years 2 months ago #25770 by Fath2o
Umbral, I guess I don't understand. If you are such an expert on the topic, Why are you asking for advice here? It appears you have already answered your own questions.
In Ludovic's defense, safety is a serious concern for all of us that post on this forum. He is very experienced, provides excellent advice and was kind enough to take your post seriously and respond to you. (And make me chuckle a little.)
Good luck
Last edit: 6 years 2 months ago by Fath2o. Reason: add text
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6 years 2 months ago - 6 years 2 months ago #25771 by photofr
Actually, you said “77-100 km around an island, no matter the weather, as fast as possible”. Like most people on this forum, we will always try to help; most time, we take our years of knowledge and share it for free because we all enjoy the sport. We do not get paid for this – but we take hours out of our time to help others none the less.

When you said NO MATTER THE WEATHER, most of us automatically assumed that you wanted to be safe. Personally, I would never provide you with 5 minutes of my time if you’d tell me that you didn’t care if you were going to live or die while paddling 77 km around your favorite island.


Rudders are not mandatory during Olympic Flat Water racing, yet everyone uses them because even on flat water, rudders make a kayak faster. You mentioned FAST, so I recommended a kayak with a rudder system for both speed and safety.

You don’t agree, that’s no problem. You too are entitled to your opinion.

I don’t know that it matters to you that much, but you should at least know who people are before requesting to ban them from a forum.

My name is Ludovic, I try to be as active as possible within the surfski community. I was a certified lifeguard for the City & County of Honolulu, and have been on a surfski for over 31 years. I have built them for nearly a decade. When ever possible, I always go out of my way to help others, no matter if they are total beginners, strangers, or top athletes. Do not mistake my bluntness with being aggressive: I simply refuse to help anyone who is UNSAFE – unless they are drowning before my eyes.

Ludovic
(Brittany, France)
Last edit: 6 years 2 months ago by photofr.
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6 years 2 months ago - 6 years 2 months ago #25773 by photofr
YOU THINK YOU KNOW
Quoting you: "The RTM Disco is 23 kg same as the V7. "

You may want to check your facts, because they are far from the same.

The Disco is 4.28 meters long (that’s a whole lot shorter) and will still weight 23-24 kilos.

The V7 is 5.2 meters long, and will weight between 20 and 21.5 kilos including the rudder (based on boats 5 models that I have personally witnessed being weighted).

A 4-kilo difference may not seem like a lot to you, but 4 kilos is about ½ the weight of my entire surfski (21 feet long).

LIFEGUARDS
Lifeguards get paid on the job - but you don't want to know how many times lifeguards will rescue someone when they are not on the job. It doesn't make us heroes either way; it only makes us safety conscious.

PLASTIC BOATS ?
I just found another model - stable, pretty fast, only 18 kilos, and with an attractive price. Apparently designed and made in the European Community.
Price is

Ludovic
(Brittany, France)
Last edit: 6 years 2 months ago by photofr.

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6 years 2 months ago - 6 years 2 months ago #25774 by andis
Umbral, stop being strong minded about this; you are clueless. Try to learn something - not all people have this ability but practice it.
A boat's speed is made by many variables and I have tested all the boats you mention by GPS. They are very slow compared to the v7. I own these boats. I can keep the v7 traveling at 11km/h and have downwind it to 19.6km/h.
i have the GPS data.
Also, no need to be offensive to people that try to help you in the forum, even if you don't like their opinion. No one here is obliged to assist you, and you are quickly depriving people of the motives to do so.

Epic V7, Fenn Bluefin, Epic V10S
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Last edit: 6 years 2 months ago by andis.

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6 years 2 months ago - 6 years 2 months ago #25775 by Spacehopper

Umbral wrote:
You are wrong on the assumption that RTM Tempo longer waterline means faster speed. The RTM Disco despite being shorter and with big overhangs (rocker) is much faster than the Tempo, it is the fastest sit on top of RTM, with speeds equal to the Kaskazi Breeze AR that costs 1500 pounds, instead of 595 euro for the Disco. Again it's geometry and mathematics not just marketing about waterline length.

Read the speed section here : ftlauderdaleyakfishingclub.org/RTM/rtmdisco.html


Well Cap'n Jimbo didn't take his GPS with him, but if he says it's faster then I'm convinced... :laugh:

You may well be right that the Disco is faster than the Tempo - they are very different hull designs and I haven't paddled the Disco. While waterline is not the whole story, it is one of the defining features of any vessel not operating in planing mode - longer is generally faster, all other things being equal, not a whole lot of marketing about it. Maybe read up on the maths...

PS - overhangs and rocker are actually separate aspects of design - quite possible to have a large rocker with zero overhangs - though vice-versa is rather harder ;)
Last edit: 6 years 2 months ago by Spacehopper.

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6 years 2 months ago #25779 by andis
How do you know that the disco is faster than other kayaks, amongst other things you state with such certainty?
What kayaks have you tried?

First decide if you want a sit on top or a surf ski. Don't confuse them. Can you handle a surfski?

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6 years 2 months ago #25780 by Spacehopper
I'd take 'official' weights with a big pinch of salt.

Somebody hand that man a shovel...

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6 years 2 months ago #25782 by andis
What European country are you based in buddy?
Would you like to come try my boats?
I am keeping them in Greece.

Will help you understand the design differences and how they affect speed and stability. Hard chine vs no chine, round bottom vs shallow V, rocker and cross sections.

It's not just about the basics. My v7 is faster than my xp18 empty. And more stable. Things change once you load them.

I am a strong paddler. 1.90 & 100kg. I bench press and lift my weight. I participate in races in Europe. I cannot take the scupper pro half the distance I can take a boat with less resistance such as a surf ski. But I cannot load a surf ski (v7 excluded but can't take much weight before ruining its surfing).

Also, get a boat with a rudder as the core fatigue will kick in pretty soon and spoil your trip.

The disco is a good boat. But as with all sea kayaks (still is shaped like one) it is a slow boat. It's not a sport boat like any surf ski and will not give you thrills.
But it may well be the best boat for your intended usage.

Above all, be safe buddy. And try boats before buying one; it's a lot of fun!

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6 years 2 months ago #25787 by photofr
Now ask yourselves:
What paddler would make the claim that they can handle any ski no matter how unstable it is without having (at least) a pretty good amount of time spent on a surfski?

A better question: how can you know surfskis, but not sure about the importance of a rudder???

Readers: consider this a warning: “there’s something very odd and not right here”.

CAREFUL !

Ludovic
(Brittany, France)
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6 years 2 months ago - 6 years 2 months ago #25789 by Fath2o
Maybe one of these would work. It's cheap, plastic and probably moves pretty fast downwind.
Pretty stylish too! :laugh:
Oh Darn, couldn't get the picture to post :(
Maybe this will work. Oh boy! having fun with this one.



i5.walmartimages.com/dfw/dce07b8c-515b/k...-6e5203add71c.v1.jpg
Last edit: 6 years 2 months ago by Fath2o.

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6 years 2 months ago #25790 by photofr
:woohoo: I think time's a wastin' & someone is mocking us from here to the sea.

"Ambral is an anti protozoal agent. It is believed that the mechanism of action is associated with DNA damage-sensitive microorganisms."

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