Carbonology Vs think Evo Gen2

1 year 8 months ago #30004 by RichardCampbell
Hi I am currently paddling a Carbonology Vault 1st gen(Australian), The paddling i'm doing and i'm still learning, I find the Vault a bit unstable in messed up water,Like boat wake, Or tide chop or swell coming from angles. I was looking to get out of the ski, And i was looking at the Think Evo Gen 2 (2016), Just wondering if i would be wasting my time to change.
I'm paddling twice a week in enclosed waters only
Any feed back would be appreciated
Thanks
Richard
The following user(s) said Thank You: robin.mousley

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1 year 8 months ago #30005 by AR_convert
You'll find the Evo II much more stable. The Gen 1 Vault was always a sub elite level ski.
Evo II is also a much bigger ski in all ways.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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1 year 8 months ago #30006 by robin.mousley
AR_Convert is correct: you'll find the Evo II MUCH more stable than the Vault.

The Evo II has much more volume and you'll find it a drier ride in downwind conditions too.

I weight 77kg at the moment. When I last paddled the Vault I was over 80kg so that didn't help. I found the Vault fast, but tippy so my overall performance was compromised by having to focus on staying upright.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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1 year 8 months ago #30007 by PhilSE2
A paddling partner has owned the EVO Gen 11 , Swordfish S and lately Vault Gen 2. I also have owned a Swordfish and have a Vault Gen 2.
My PP is 75 kg and found the EVO 11 a bit too buoyant but found the Swordfish S much more suitable for his weight. He has also found the Vault G2 better suited again for his weight but less stable than the SF.
My experience is similar but I am very impressed with the Vault G2 . I found his EVO 11 to be more buoyant than the SF and as a result found the SF nicer and more stable as the SF sits better in the water for those of us in the mid 70kg range. I also found the EVO 11 bucket comfortable but too tight for me.
A selection of suitable boat is a very personal thing and depends on your weight and physical characteristics. Bottom line is you have to try them. Both the EVO 11 and SF S are great boats but only you can determine which would best suit you.
The following user(s) said Thank You: jateureka

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1 year 8 months ago #30008 by jazzman
FWIW , I have both an Evo Gen 2 and a Vault ( 2nd gen). I agree with the other comments that the Evo may well be more stable. Interestingly though I find the opposite to be true at the moment and it's a pure weight thing. I've had a fairly shitty last year ( recurrent brain tumour , multiple rounds of chemo). I really struggled to keep weight on ( nauseated all the time) and at time dropped in to the 67-68 kg mark (I'm 6 ft). I found the Evo to have too much volume at the time and was badly wind affected. When I started to regain a bit of weight , I went looking for other options. I ended up with the Vault ( based on advice from Hein ) and love it. It is a smaller boat , shorter and less volume but suits me perfectly. I'm now at a healthy 75 kg ( beers depending) and the Vault sits nicely. It's even more stable in cross chop than the Evo. When I get the time , I intend to jot down a few thoughts on the Vault from the perspective of a mid packer.
Without knowing you or your dimensions , my guess is that you may well be happier in the Evo. It is more stable , quick enough in downwind but in enclosed waters I think it will be great . The more comfortable you feel, the more paddling you'll do and the more fun you'll have. My only caveat- the Evo may not suit if you're light ( low 70's or under)
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1 year 8 months ago #30011 by Fath2o
I believe this discussion demonstrates how volume measurements for surfski's would be useful.
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1 year 8 months ago #30013 by RichardCampbell
Thank you to everyone that has commented, I probably should of put my weight and height into original post. I weigh 82kgs, and 175cm tall (don't know how that converts). The Vault is a really nice boat but as a previous post said I have to concentrate on staying upright in certain conditions, that i lose out on enjoying my paddling, and I don't relly want to be confined to a nice day with no wind and no chop.
Sounds like the EVO is worth looking at and of course paddling it, would there be any other skis worth looking at.
Thanks again for all your good responses
Richard

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1 year 8 months ago #30015 by jazzman
I can only comment on other boats I've paddled but an Epic v8 pro may well be an option for you. Also , the Think EZE (stable as a stable thing , may be a drop down in performance but that depends on what you're after). I'm sure Stellar would do something but I have no personal experience with them . I guess the Carbonology Boost might be worth thinking about if your like the Vault.

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1 year 8 months ago #30057 by RichardCampbell
Hi All
I paddled the Think Evo 2 today, It was way too stable for me, Felt like i was sitting on top of the water not in it. I think the volume of the ski for my weight was way too much.
I could sit in wind chop side on, With no chance of the ski twitching under me.
I could lean out the side of the ski, With no chance of it rolling over.
Like i said in my original post, I normally only paddle enclosed waters.
So i'm now back to looking.
Can anyone fill me in on how they measure the widths and volumes on ski's, As i'm really confused on this now, After thinking i was only going up 1 cm in width from my old Gen 1 Vault.
I'm now wondering on ski's a bit skinnier or same width, But the volume will be there.
How do the Stellar or Vajda range go with width and volume
Any responses will be greatly appreciated.
Richard

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1 year 8 months ago #30074 by owenfromwales
Hi Richard,

This may be a silly question, but does your Vault have a seat pad in it?

Owen

189cm 90~100kg
Present skis:
2017 Stellar SEI 2G
1993 Gaisford Spec Ski
1980s Pratt Spec Ski
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor
Previous
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor X 3
1987 Kevlar Chalupsky (Hummel) (Welsh copy!)
1988 Kevlar Double Chalupsky
1992 Hammerhead spec
2000 Fenn copy

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1 year 8 months ago #30075 by Fath2o
Richard, being "way to stable" is not a bad thing. The fact that you did not feel it was possible to fall out in side chop is a good thing! Even if you felt the EVO is not the right boat for you. IMO If you feel tenuous about your stability in the conditions you want to paddle in, your in the wrong boat. Unlikely you will gain much speed in a less stable boat. Good luck.

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1 year 8 months ago #30076 by RichardCampbell
Hi Owen.
I have no seat pad in the Vault, My brother has a Fenn Elite S, Which i have been paddling, And staying dry :).
It has only been in a creek , Not game enough to go any where else,
I have not paddled any thing else yet, Work keeps getting in the road.
Hi Fath2o
On being way too stable, Maybe a bad statement too make, The ski just felt way to big for me in width and volume,
As i my original post i was just after something slight more stable in tide current and boat chop, I don't do any open water paddling.
Thanks for all your comments, The only way i know what i'm needing is to paddle a lot of different ski's.

Richard

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1 year 8 months ago - 1 year 8 months ago #30077 by AR_convert

RichardCampbell wrote: The only way i know what i'm needing is to paddle a lot of different ski's.


Yep, you got it, there's no better or worse skis, only what works for you given your height, weight and conditions you want to paddle it in.

Almost every ski will have an area it shines in and another it struggles in.

As for others reading the "far too stable" comment....I have always said, stick with a ski until you are sure its the ski that is holding you back from progressing and not your skills or fitness, then you are ready to progress to a faster ski.

I don't have the fastest ocean ski going around but I can make it go faster than most due to being able to paddle my heart out in it.

For those doing downwind, you know this is the truth when you get someone like Walter C paddle past you on an Epic V8.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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1 year 8 months ago #30078 by robin.mousley
Haha, you plucked a nerve with "too stable"!

I know what you mean - I have been paddling a demo Nelo 520 and although it's extremely stable, being short, it's also extremely nimble and my poor beloved Evo II feels like an unresponsive barge when I get back on it.

But it only takes one "proper" downwind trip for me to appreciate both the stability (on the way out to the start, paddling diagonally into wind and waves) and the length/volume (the ski never nose-dives) for me to appreciate its qualities.

The apparent sluggishness in steering is at least partly because of the length of the ski - but its directional stability also means that it's not nearly as prone to broaching as other skis that I've paddled.

I wish someone could make a ski that is:

- As stable in side-on chop as the Evo II
- As nimble in steering as the 520
- As fast as a V14 (that might be asking too much!)

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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1 year 8 months ago #30079 by AR_convert

robin.mousley wrote: I wish someone could make a ski that is:

- As stable in side-on chop as the Evo II
- As nimble in steering as the 520
- As fast as a V14 (that might be asking too much!)


Haha, watch all the spruikers come out of the wood work now!

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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1 year 8 months ago #30080 by RichardCampbell
Hi Robin
Yes I agree with your comments, its a weird thing to say "stable",but then say "too stable". Im going to hopefully paddle a stellar sel gen 2 and also a stellar sei gen 2, also vajda 46 if i can get on one. Hopefully this weekend coming. That will open up another set of feelings for me. Hopefully either one will fit the bill. Like i said I paddled my brothers fenn elite s and find it very much like my old original epic v10 l(thin black stripe) which is probably a weird statements too make. But i was learning on the old v10. So my balance must be getting slightly better

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1 year 8 months ago #30081 by owenfromwales
Hi Richard,

Sorry to ask the bum-pad question, was just in case ;-)

I`m really looking forward to hearing the results of your weekend surfski shootout. I`ve never had the opportunity to try the Think or Carbonology skis, but I have been paddling the Stellar SEI 2g since Christmas, so it would be great to hear how they all compare.

Have fun!

Owen

189cm 90~100kg
Present skis:
2017 Stellar SEI 2G
1993 Gaisford Spec Ski
1980s Pratt Spec Ski
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor
Previous
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor X 3
1987 Kevlar Chalupsky (Hummel) (Welsh copy!)
1988 Kevlar Double Chalupsky
1992 Hammerhead spec
2000 Fenn copy

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1 year 8 months ago #30082 by mamaru
The intermediant ski with the best stability/ width- ratio appears to be the Nelo 550 (see e.g. the thread here in this Forum) . From my (limited) experience you should definitely give this ski a try before deciding anything! I am coming from a 1 Gen Vault, too, my first and still unforgotten surfski love, but in the end untameable for me. Now my next "Baby" will be the Nelo: much more stable without being sluggish at all, beautiful slim design and narrow catch, not as voluptuous as the Vault, but also curves where curves shoud be...

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1 year 8 months ago - 1 year 8 months ago #30083 by AR_convert

RichardCampbell wrote: I find the Vault a bit unstable in messed up water,Like boat wake, Or tide chop or swell coming from angles.


Interesting thing about these conditions is that the more width and flatter the hull profile of a ski the greater it will be effected.

So while a ski may be known for more stability on the flat, it will feel less stable because its hull will be reacting to all those forces.

A narrower ski with a more rounded hull will be effected less by these conditions but be tippier in its feel.

I loved my Gen 1 Vault, but as it was a short ski with rocker yes its suffered for directional stability in the chop in enclosed waters.
But this was the same attribute which made it awesome in short wave period downwinds it moved nicely on the runs.

It is also low volume, so not affected by wind as much as the full length and volume skis.

Those that are thinking of buying a shorter ski like the new V11 should take note of this. If it's bought to go downwind, great, but if you are racing point to point in side winds and chop you may find the boat moving around and not tracking very well.

Like I say, all boats will have strong and weak points, you've just got to figure out which weak points you are prepared to put up with.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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1 year 8 months ago #30085 by RichardCampbell
Thanks mamaru and AR, For your thoughts.
I have picked up a Stellar SEL (Gen2) to paddle for a couple of days (nice to have friends in the right places) So that will be interesting. At least it won't be a 1/2 hour paddle, Then trying to make my mind up.
Interesting point you make about the flatter bottom effecting the way the ski feels in confused waters.
I really loved my Vault Gen 1 also, Now to find something just as nice and nicer.

I will let you all know how i get on

Thanks
Richard

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