Carbonology Vs think Evo Gen2

1 year 1 month ago #30090 by mamaru

AR_convert wrote:

RichardCampbell wrote: I find the Vault a bit unstable in messed up water,Like boat wake, Or tide chop or swell coming from angles.


Interesting thing about these conditions is that the more width and flatter the hull profile of a ski the greater it will be effected.

So while a ski may be known for more stability on the flat, it will feel less stable because its hull will be reacting to all those forces.

A narrower ski with a more rounded hull will be effected less by these conditions but be tippier in its feel.


Impala predicted the same, and I have heard this before. So I asked someone with a lot of experience in many different skis particularly about the behaviour of the Nelo 550 in waves. He stated that (opposite to the expectations!) the Nelo 550 also then is much more stable than the much rounder Nelo 560, he uses the 550 now for taking fotos and making videos being outside... Could it have to do something with volume distribution, rocker or something alike?

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1 year 1 month ago - 1 year 1 month ago #30095 by Impala
" the Nelo 550 also then is much more stable than the much rounder Nelo 560, he uses the 550 now for taking fotos and making videos being outside..."

I talked to the same man recently :-)

The explanation for that is that the 560 is an elite ski with a very narrow waterline. Don't be fooled by the the 45cm overall width (which according to my measuement is rather 44cm). At a realistic draft of 10,5 cm at my weight (73 kg), the 560 has a waterline width of 35.5 cm. This is narrow and makes the boat very tippy, despite the somewhat flattened bottom of the hull. The sheerline of the 560 is high above the water, so the 45 cm overall width does not provide effective secondary stability for the intermediate paddler. The waterline of the 560 is way more narrow than the Stellar SES, and the SES is way more stable than the 560, accordingly (I owned both).

The 550 is a completely different boat. I guess its waterline is at 41 cm, which is categorical difference. I recently paddled the 550 in North Sea surf for a couple of minutes, and there, for me, it is still demanding. For someone with K1 exposure, OTOH, it is an armchair. Do not forget the much larger difference that our skills make as compared to the boats. That is what Boyan proved with his V5.

Perhaps another interesting info bit for 560 owners and fans: My 560 ML has a seat height of 4 cm.

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1 year 1 month ago #30097 by RichardCampbell
Hi All
I paddled the Stellar SEL Gen 2 today.
Started in the creek, After setting up pedal distance etc.
Started my normal way down the creek to get the feel of the ski, Felt fast,(but my GPS has had a swim and now refuses to work)
Felt really confident in the stability of the ski, Could turn around in the seat to look at the rear of the ski, Something i could not do in the carbonology
Turned back about 1 km down the creek, And headed out into the main lake, Where the wind chop was coming from the side of the ski, I could paddle the ski without having to constantly brace or feel like i was going to roll out.
Sat out there for a while in the cross chop to see how stable it was feeling, It was really good.
Paddled around for a while longer, Just seeing if i could upset myself, Seems very stable.
I'm now going to paddle a Varda Hawx 43, To see how it will compare, Being the same supposed width.
Just wondering if AR is correct that the flatter the bottom the more the boat will be upset in the confused water??

I'm going to be brave tomorrow and paddle my brothers Elite S around the down where the carbonology was giving me the confused feeling, So i'll either stay dry or be very wet.

Thanks
Richard

P.S. Thanks Owen for the info on the ski widths.
The following user(s) said Thank You: owenfromwales

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1 year 1 month ago #30101 by RichardCampbell
Hi All
Paddled at the local club this morning, I must say, That the elite preformed very well. I did have a swim, But that was pilot error.
The boat behaved very much like the carbonology, Maybe slightly more stable. Which was interesting.
I paddled in cross chop as well as a nice gusty SW breeze.
So i'm now even more confused about ski behaviour, In different water conditions.
I'm glad my brother isn't using his ski for a while :). It'll give me a good chance to test it and me out

Thanks
Richard
The following user(s) said Thank You: Hiro

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1 year 1 month ago #30115 by Rod Thomas
Hi Richard
I also loved my 1st Gen Vault. It was very responsive, fun and would whiz along the side of runners. I was a bit wobbly at times but didn't mind. What did it for me was on one windy choppy day I took 10 mins to remount. This scared me. So I down-graded to a Swordfish S, which has lower sides and an easier remount. I think remounting should be the criterion for deciding on whether a boat is right for you or not. If you don't have a bombproof remount in all the conditions you go out in then choose one you can.
...but I still miss my Vault...

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1 year 1 month ago #30118 by RichardCampbell
Hi Rob
Yes the vault has been harder to replace than im thought, Im paddling my brothers fenn elite s, and im finding it not too bad, It is feeling very much like the carbonolgy, But doesn't have the second stability of the carbonology. But in the confused waters it feels slightly better. It does have the surf rudder in it and he said with the shorter rudder it becomes a different beast. I can make up a large surf rudder at work then slowly cut it down, So the jump to the shorter hopefully won't be so bad.
Im trying to find a swordfish S to have a try on, But work keeps getting in the way
From what im reading on the net, It could be a really nice ski to try next

Richard

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1 year 3 weeks ago #30182 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic Carbonology Vs think Evo Gen2
Just my 2 cents worth. I paddled a Vault for a long time and eventually traded up to a Fenn Elite and a Elite SL. I found the Elites and the Vault very similar in feel. Both had very similar primary stability. The Vault probably had better secondary.
The biggest problem with the Elites was remounting. No matter how much I practiced I was never confident getting back in and this ultimately affected how I paddled.
Now have gen 1 SEL and it is a good all round boat. Less rocket than the Elites so harder to pick up small runners and probably a bit more twitchy in side chop.
The fact that I'm confident I can remount makes paddling it an easier proposition.
I have always found that lack of rocker is a big factor in how a boat handles side chop. Red 7 pro, Think legend, gen2 V10 all struggled in the side chop. Vault and the Elites were not too bad.

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1 year 3 weeks ago #30204 by RichardCampbell
Hi Dicko
I have been paddling my brothers Fenn elite s, now for a couple of weeks now, and getting very comfortable in it. Im still not 100 percent on getting back in. Im about to ask on the forum the major difference between the swordfish and swordfish s, and thinking that it could be the ski to get, I really want to try the Vajda 43, just to see how itll go.

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11 months 4 weeks ago #30347 by Marieski
Yep, I didn’t buy a vault because of the remount. Same for carbonology Atom, which was the best giggle ever but impossible to remount. Ended up with the Spark. A boat has gotta be as easy to get back in as it is to fall out of.

Past skis: Spirit PRS, EpicV10Sport Performance, Epic V10 Elite, Stellar SES Advantage. Current skis: Fenn Elite Spark, Fenn Swordfish vacuum. Custom Horizon, Epic V7

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1 month 1 week ago #32821 by [email protected]
Hi Rod, how did you find the Swordy S compared to the gen 1 Vault? I've demoed both Swordy S & 2 gen Vault - both about the same speed over 10kms flat water. 9.5 kmh. Vault marginally quicker. Seem to have the same stability in flat water but the Vault felt a bit more comfortable and I was "on top" of each stroke. I'd really like to know how they compare in the ocean. From the reviews it seems the Swordy S is more stable & a better bet outside. Have you tried the gen 2 Vault to compare with the Swordy S? Thank you from Possum Brown

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1 month 1 week ago #32822 by Rod Thomas
Hi Possum Brown
It was a couple of years ago that I sold my Vault. And I have got better at paddling since then. But yes the Swordfish S is more stable and for me solid in rough water and easy to remount (for me). The Vault Gen 2 is a completely different boat to the Vault Gen 1, according to the reviews and I have not tried it. The Vault Gen 1 was nimble and fun but more difficult to remount so I downgraded as I said. Hope it works out for you! Try before you buy in the conditions you'll go out in! Rod

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1 month 1 week ago #32825 by robin.mousley

how did you find the Swordy S compared to the gen 1 Vault?


I've also paddled both boats and can say:
  • I found the Vault ver 1 significantly tippier than the Swordfish S (which I paddle currently)
  • The Vault 1 has significantly less volume
  • The Vault 1 felt fast, and on flat water is probably faster than the Swordfish S
  • The Swordfish S has a relatively wide bucket and is easy to remount

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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1 month 1 week ago #32829 by Possum
Thanks Robin & Rod for that information. By all accounts the gen 2 Vault is a completely different boat to the gen 1. Different bucket, less hump, more stable but marginally slower so sounds a lot like the new Swordy S. They feel similar on flat water as well. Gen 2 Vault was 45 seconds faster over 10kms (HR 130 for Vault 138 for Swordy) so looking at buying the Vault unless the Swordy S is more stable in the rough stuff outside & downwind - where I ultimately want to paddle. I'm 77kgs and 173cm and again the lower volume Vault would seem to have the edge over the Swordy S for under 80kg paddlers.

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1 month 1 week ago #32832 by robin.mousley
Just to say - I'm 1.87m tall and weigh in at 81kg at the moment and the Swordfish S feels just right in terms of volume and longitudinal balance. The nose is slim and isn't badly affected by head-on/quartering wind (as apposed to the Fenn Elite or Think Evo II, both of which would be flung sideways by the wind).

The Swordfish does dip its nose enough that I use a wave deflector (the highly effective shape from Nelo).

And it's stable enough that I feel pretty much bullet proof in all conditions.

I hope to try the new vault in the not too distant future.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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1 month 1 week ago #32833 by fredrik
After paddling elite skis for the last 10 years I still find the Vault G1 and G1 "unnecessarily" tippy. I find the primary stability low even compared to my earlier skis Uno, Elite S and V12 G2 now.

I my mind primary stability is very important for speed - it is in the primary stability mode you get the speed, power and acceleration. Not much fun wobbling around, even if you don´t fall out on the way.


For a intermediate paddler I would very surprised if any Vault is faster or less tiring than the Swordy (not tried the Swordy S) in the ocean or moving water over a a few Ks. Admittedly the Vault may feel faster over a wave or two

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2 weeks 6 days ago - 2 weeks 6 days ago #32966 by eh.haole
I've had the Evo III in Elite layup for over a year now and it still gets a bit twitched out regularly in various wierdo chop-layered cross-swells in the outer Harbour. I'm ~75kg wet and do feel a bit on top of the water. 2 metres or above and something sneaky off a wall will inevitably test my alertness. I think part of this is due to Sydney's special array of cliffs everywhere that reflect all of the ocean swells and ferry wakes around like an echo chamber. If there is any point of weakness in stability w.r.t. your balance and/or paddler/boat combination, you will discover it one day or another. The only thing truly at home is a 20 metre aluminum powercat ferry or a ski paddler who's out at least three to four times a week, every week (surely not me but I've seen 'em)

Haolewaiian kook & part-time stability tester

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1 week 3 hours ago #33072 by Possum
Hi Robin,

Have you had the chance to paddle the gen 2 Vault outside yet? Even though I'd only paddled in the flat I decided to buy one as it was slightly more comfy than the Swordy S.
I was about to buy one in mint condition 2nd hand but declined after a test paddle resulted in almost immediate discomfort. Chalk and cheese between the demo boat I paddled 2 months ago. Very strange. The owner was selling for the same reason. ......back to the drawing board for me.

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6 days 21 hours ago #33074 by robin.mousley
>> Have you had the chance to paddle the gen 2 Vault outside yet?

No, I haven't. I was hoping to at our SA Champs in EL but I pulled an intercostal 6 weeks ago and am only just back on the water and didn't go to the event.

>> Chalk and cheese between the demo boat I paddled 2 months ago

That is strange....

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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