Topic-icon Forward leaning bucket?

3 weeks 15 hours ago #30252 by mickeyA
Is there are ski out there who’s bucket forces you to lean forward? I mainly paddle V10 Sport g2 and old XT. Over longer distances, I find my butt gradually slides down and forward into the low middle spot of the bucket. This causes me to curve my back, slumping a bit. I have to sort of jump up, push back with legs to slide my backside back up to a more comfortable, higher, position in the back part of the bucket. I like my butt being the furthest point back, causing a strong, slightly forward lean with straight back. Surely there is a seat design that forces a slight forward lean (if not, there is a way to improve in design). If the only answer is padding, what is best product? Thanks.

Epic v10Sport, Stellar SE, Fenn XT, Twogood Chalupski, Findeisen Stinger spec, Huki S1-X, Burton wedge2

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3 weeks 6 hours ago #30255 by owenfromwales
The stuff I use for padding is called EPT or sometimes EPDM. It`s kinda like neoprene and comes in all thicknesses and various colours. My seat has about 25 mm from a combo of 5 and 10 mm pads, with about 7mm on each side. I spread silicone over the top of it after to give a slightly slidey texture, whilst the naked material over the gunwales remains grippy for climbing back on and carrying.

Owen

189cm 90~100kg
Present skis:
2017 Stellar SEI 2G
1993 Gaisford Spec Ski
1980s Pratt Spec Ski
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor
Previous
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor X 3
1987 Kevlar Chalupsky (Hummel) (Welsh copy!)
1988 Kevlar Double Chalupsky
1992 Hammerhead spec
2000 Fenn copy
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3 weeks 5 hours ago #30256 by wesley
I found the Think Buckets in all of them I have reviewed, Evo, Evo2/3(pending), Ion 2/3, Uno 1/2, Uno Max 2,Legend promotes more forward leaning than the other brands.

Wesley Echols
Former Stellar Kayaks and Surfskis, Performance Director, USA ,
SurfskiRacing.com, #1 in Surfski Reviews.

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2 weeks 5 days ago #30262 by balance_fit
Hi MickeyA

I also paddle a rather ''old'' XT, (2007) and did experience a bit of slump posture for awhile when I recently returned to ski paddling
Not wanting to use any padding in the cockpit that would affect hip rotation, I approached the issue from the side of the foot well.
First, I added heel pads, cut from SUP traction pads. This would enhance contact with the foot braces, since the angle of the XT foot braces is not right for my limited ankle dorsiflexion. Since I have tight calves, the rather vertical angle of my XT's foot braces would force my feet into pronation and rotate my legs, and for instance, my pelvis out of neutral. The heel pads solved this issue, the pelvis remains neutral and no slumping happens.
Second, I've placed attention to hamstring stretching, and pelvic position awareness training.
Sitting on the bare floor, I would achieve a neutral pelvis, measure the resulting knee flexion that my hamstrings would allow, and extrapolate these measurements and position to my ski foot brace adjustment.
Sitting exercises to further increase tolerance to the neutral pelvic position were added. As an example, stretch band row, vertical rows with a weighted bar and over head pullover to further challenge the neutral pelvic posture.
Once paddling, I remain in constant contact with the foot brace, since this eases the attainment of neutral pelvic position.
This has worked for me. Maybe the heel angle is not your issue. But finding, and attaining and holding neutral pelvic position, might save your spine from future issues.
Regards
JD

Simple, not easy.

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2 weeks 5 days ago #30264 by zachhandler
Raising the seat height with foam will help. So will stretching your hamstrings.

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2 weeks 5 days ago #30265 by robin.mousley
Interesting post.

I've not really thought about it from a long distance point of view.

But what I do know is that a cutaway at the back of the bucket is critical for downwind paddling, so that you can lean back comfortably. It's particularly important in shorter skis like the Nelos so that you can work to keep the nose from diving at the bottom of a wave.

Rob

Currently Think Evo II, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others I can't remember!
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2 weeks 5 days ago #30266 by mickeyA
Very interesting about the heel pad. I am imagining keeping foot plate in same location so the balls of my feet and toes stay as is, but by padding only the heels, I effectively push my hips back, but not my head. Adjustable footplate angles would be a good idea where you could go from 90 degree vertical to ~45 degree wedge for me (with slip proof surface). Sitting higher also makes a ton of sense, but like spec skis (or OC-1 as extreme example) where heels are lower than seat, you sacrifice balance. I wonder if I would be faster sitting much higher in a wider boat (same stability as lower seat on skinnier ski)? I go to yoga class once a week and certainly stretch before races, but I do have lifelong relatively tight hamstrings, so I have a tougher time sitting low (heels and butt ~same level) and still having slight forward lean while maintaining a straight back, especially with vertical feet. Great suggestions, keep them coming. Thank you.

Epic v10Sport, Stellar SE, Fenn XT, Twogood Chalupski, Findeisen Stinger spec, Huki S1-X, Burton wedge2

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2 weeks 5 days ago #30267 by balance_fit

robin.mousley wrote: Interesting post.

I've not really thought about it from a long distance point of view.


Thanks for your thoughts Rob. You've brought an interesting perspective into the topic.

The pelvis is quite an interesting structure to address when analyzing movement, since it's position affects, and is affected by many other structures. From a movement chain point of view, kinetic chain if you will, the pelvis will achieve a position (tilt) in relation to external  influences: On our skis, the position of the feet, and legs, in relation to the foot brace/plate will influence pelvic tilt, since it is quite a solid base of support.

Foot plate distance, specially in presence of tight hamstrings, and fatigue, may also be  factors that affect pelvic tilt.

Interestingly, based on the "Power circles" concepts, the paddle in the water may also contribute to muscle action happening from the paddle to hip direction, influencing pelvis action.

 Back to pelvic tilt, from the foot brace perspective. This tilt will manifest as either anterior, where the upper rim of the pelvis (iliac crest) will lean forward, towards the bow of the ski, or posterior, with a rearward lean.

Our concerns with pelvic tilt in this topic of discussion are mostly with the posterior lean/tilt. Tight hamstrings and weak lumbar muscles can be significant contributors to posterior pelvic tilt. This tilt may bring about several issues, such as  forward sliding in the bucket, rubbing coccyx, numb legs (sciatic compression), slumped posture, restrained breathing, shoulder impingement, neck pain, etc.

Since contact with the foot brace is fundamental in the forward stroke, and our hips are a massive point of movement synergies related to paddling (rotation) and balance, it does make sense to address hip position/tilt, and strive to achieve a neutral tilt. I believe that looking at our foot plates as a point of reference does make sense whenever addressing our hips position.

All the above being said, we can't forget that individual anatomy, pelvic position awareness and capability, and, bucket shape are factors to consider.

Regards

JD

Simple, not easy.

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2 weeks 5 days ago #30268 by balance_fit

mickeyA wrote: Very interesting about the heel pad. I am imagining keeping foot plate in same location so the balls of my feet and toes stay as is, but by padding only the heels, I effectively push my hips back, but not my head. ... I go to yoga class once a week and certainly stretch before races, but I do have lifelong relatively tight hamstrings, so I have a tougher time sitting low (heels and butt ~same level) and still having slight forward lean ...


Hi Mickey A

You have brought two interesting points: First, when you push your hips back, presumably, if you have slid forward. This action pushes the whole pelvis back, without addressing tilt. Since this action increases the distance between the foot plate and the pelvis even more, it places increases tension on the hamstrings, and will increase unwanted posterior tilt. In fact, you've slid forward since your pelvis "tries" to achieve a neutral tilt by decreasing the distance between foot plate and hip. But, the hip may slide into the bucket's hump, further increasing posterior tilt. Please read my reply to Rob, where I explain pelvic tilt.

The second point you bring is very relevant. You do try to address the hamstring tightness by stretching and doing yoga. While this strategy might help, it doesn't address the lumbar muscles that help keep the pelvis, and lumbar vertebrae neutral. Since you identify your postural issue as one created by sitting with feet and hips level, I feel this is where most attention should be placed. I would rather recommend Pilates training, on a one to one instruction. Or, have your position analyzed by a clinician with experience in paddling.
Please keep in mind that achieving a neutral pelvis successfully, with both feet at the foot brace, is a first step. The next one is pushing of the foot brace to engage hip rotation, where the pushing leg lengthens, and the hamstring will pull that side pelvis posteriorly. If one is leaning forward to catch a bump, the hamstrings will pull even more. All this means that one should be able to sit with neutral pelvic tilt, rotate and lean forward without hamstring inhibition. This might require reconsidering your paddling shoes, foot plate distance, and angle as well.

Last, you explain that your issue sitting level also manifests as a forward lean of the upper body. This means that the spine is attempting to compensate for the pelvic posterior tilt, to keep your head level. This places undue stress on the spine and might cause injury.

Regards

JD

Simple, not easy.

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2 weeks 2 days ago #30273 by Wombat661
Is hard to understand the body mechanics without some picture. Found this one, and it makes perfect sense.



Hamstring is basically like a rope that connects the lower leg with the pelvic. When you straighten out the knee, the lower leg pulls on the hamstring muscle which tugs on the pelvic and rotates it backward. We don't want that. The solution is to bend the knee to let out some of that muscle to stop it from fighting the lumbar muscle to rotate the pelvic up.

I do find that bending the knee makes paddling more comfortable. Didn't know why until reading your description and seeing the picture.

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2 weeks 1 day ago #30278 by balance_fit
Hi Wombat661

Excellent resource. Visualizing the details makes the explanation more accessible. Allow me to look around for an image of the pelvic region and the main players regarding posture, while seated.
Thanks,
JD

Simple, not easy.

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2 weeks 23 hours ago #30297 by balance_fit
Hi Wombat661

This simple diagram that I attached shows the concept of pelvic tilt from a sideways perspective.

Please keep in mind that the pelvis is able to move in two other directions that are evident while walking, but not so much on a ski.

What should concern us as paddlers is that the bucket can not play the role of a pelvic tilting device. If we could create such a surface on the ski's bucket, designed to prevent sliding down the bucket as consequence of tight hamstrings, this surface would need to be angled down towards the stern of the ski. Think of sitting in the hump. This would have the effect of further pushing the pelvis into posterior tilt!

Regards

JD

Simple, not easy.
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1 week 1 day ago #30341 by mickeyA
Thanks for such good info. I finally got to paddle and I found putting a foam wedge at heels to lower the foot angle, to get toes well in front of heels, helps. Putting pad in lowest part of bucket, sitting higher, also helps. Putting pad in back of seat does make me sit up straighter or rotate my pelvis forward, and feels good, but rubs too much on my lower back. I had to take it out. If the butt pad is not perfectly placed, I can imagine getting irritated with it after a couple of hours. Is there a pad that is better for this than others? Thanks.

Epic v10Sport, Stellar SE, Fenn XT, Twogood Chalupski, Findeisen Stinger spec, Huki S1-X, Burton wedge2

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1 week 1 day ago #30342 by zachhandler
On the topic of hamstrings - tight hamstrings cause shoulder injuries. Tight hamstrings cause the pelvis to tip back. Then, to stay upright and not fall onto the backdeck, one must bend their spine into a hunched posture. This leaves the upper torso angled forward, which effectively forces one to raise their arms higher in order to paddle. Raised arms cause shoulder impingement and expose the rotator cuff to injury.

I hope that makes sense. Tight hamstrings will impede almost every aspect of the stroke, and also make it hard to get comfortable in a bucket.

I have horribly tight hamstrings and I am really bad about stretching them. I lack discipline in that regard, and I suffer the consequences: bucket discomfort, hunched back, sore shoulders.

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1 week 1 day ago #30343 by owenfromwales
Hi Mickey,

I reckon the most comfortable bum pads are ones you make yourself. Get the stuff in twelve inch square sheets, 5mm or 10 mm thickness, from a good hardware store. Cut each to shape and gradually build up. Silicon will hold it firmly in place whilst still allowing you to remove it one day without making a mess of your boat. The silicone can also be moulded on the sheet edges to smooth out any steps.

189cm 90~100kg
Present skis:
2017 Stellar SEI 2G
1993 Gaisford Spec Ski
1980s Pratt Spec Ski
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor
Previous
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor X 3
1987 Kevlar Chalupsky (Hummel) (Welsh copy!)
1988 Kevlar Double Chalupsky
1992 Hammerhead spec
2000 Fenn copy

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

1 week 1 day ago #30345 by balance_fit

mickeyA wrote: Thanks for such good info. I finally got to paddle and I found putting a foam wedge at heels to lower the foot angle, to get toes well in front of heels, helps. Putting pad in lowest part of bucket, sitting higher, also helps. Putting pad in back of seat does make me sit up straighter or rotate my pelvis forward, and feels good, but rubs too much on my lower back.


Hi MickeyA

Glad to hear that using the wedge at the heels helped to address the foot board angle issue. You've reduced tension on your hamstrings by use of this adjustment and hip positioning should be a bit easier to achieve now.

I can't comment on bucket/back of seat pads since I don't use these, not even to address friction between body and bucket due to hip rotation. For those purposes I use a neoprene tight that has a friction reducing underside material. Can't remember how many millimeters thick it is, although it has to be worn out due to over use!

Regards

JD

Simple, not easy.

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1 week 23 hours ago #30346 by balance_fit

zachhandler wrote: On the topic of hamstrings - tight hamstrings cause shoulder injuries. Tight hamstrings cause the pelvis to tip back. Then, to stay upright and not fall onto the backdeck, one must bend their spine into a hunched posture. This leaves the upper torso angled forward, which effectively forces one to raise their arms higher in order to paddle. Raised arms cause shoulder impingement and expose the rotator cuff to injury.

I hope that makes sense. Tight hamstrings will impede almost every aspect of the stroke, and also make it hard to get comfortable in a bucket.

I have horribly tight hamstrings and I am really bad about stretching them. I lack discipline in that regard, and I suffer the consequences: bucket discomfort, hunched back, sore shoulders.


Hi zachhandler

Thanks for bringing the shoulder issue and your experience with tight hamstrings into the topic. The relation of hamstrings and posture is an issue that many of us deal with on a daily basis. Not only sitting for extended periods at work/car/etc will shorten our hamstrings, but walking, running and other muscles imbalances do as well. And, the result is that overall posture suffers.

On the ski, a hunched posture will not only take shoulders out of alignment and predispose to rotator cuff injury, but also will restrict our breathing as well. We need to address the pelvic position issue so that the segments right above it, meaning from trunk to head, are able to align properly and contribute to a healthy stroke. This is done by achieving, as close as possible, a neutral pelvis.

Hamstring stretching, being a significant part of this situation, needs to be addressed. And hamstrings, being active both at the hip and knee, while being instrumental in postural control, are challenging to stretch. Daily hamstring stretching, even informally while sitting, can be effective. If it is programmed into our regular exercise activities and daily life, hamstring stretching will not be a painful activity. And we don't need to become rubber men/women either, to apply hamstring elasticity to our paddling sport.

Regards

JD

Simple, not easy.

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6 days 5 hours ago #30358 by mickeyA
So I feel I need to have toes well in front of heels and need to have butt higher than heels, at least higher than it already is. Now I read about Nelo. Looks like they have adjustable angle footplate (unlike my Epic and Fenn) and claim their seat is higher than others. Hmmmmm. Sounds like they have guys like me in mind. I wonder how much slower, if any, the 520 is vs my V10 Sport g2 for what I do? I’m 6’ 200 lbs, 53 yrs old, 10-40 km flat-ish water, middle of pack racer and balance is not an issue at all on V10sport. The only way the shorter fatter 520 could hang with longer, sleeker sport is if I were much more comfortable, had better posture due to better ergonomics, less fatigued back, etc. and could paddle stronger, more efficiently. So, how does Nelo 520 compare to V10Sport, mainly regarding ergonomics? Thanks.

Epic v10Sport, Stellar SE, Fenn XT, Twogood Chalupski, Findeisen Stinger spec, Huki S1-X, Burton wedge2

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6 days 4 hours ago #30359 by zachhandler
MickeyA have you played with seat pads yet? I always use at least one. I do it primarily to alleviate pressure points, but it has the benefit of improving posture and power noticeably. The downside is that it makes the ski slightly tippier.
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6 days 2 hours ago #30360 by LakeMan
In case you don't know what a hamstring is.


"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill
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