Technique critique please

3 days 20 hours ago #35558 by SpaceSputnik
Would appreciate if someone analyzed my stroke shape. I know there was a glitch at some point with paddle entering too high, but how is it otherwise? 
Thank you.


Current: Think Evo II, Stellar SES 1g.
Past: Epic V7

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3 days 19 hours ago - 3 days 19 hours ago #35559 by kwolfe
Replied by kwolfe on topic Technique critique please
Hey man.  The first thing I noticed and that your top hand is punching forward through the stroke.  I always thing of my top hand as being more of a guide through the stroke than providing any power at all.

When you go for the catch on your right hand side, you body/chest should open to the left.  This way when the blade is planted, you get the power from a full rotation of our torso aided by your leg drive.  You top hands sweeps across as this happens guiding the paddle to the exit.

Is that clear or just rambling?
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3 days 18 hours ago #35560 by SpaceSputnik
The thing about the top hand is that I don't feel that it's providing power actually. Feel no strain or fatigue in it. I suppose I could delay straightening it. 

Current: Think Evo II, Stellar SES 1g.
Past: Epic V7

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3 days 17 hours ago #35561 by kwolfe
Replied by kwolfe on topic Technique critique please
Check out this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5kfVCJcez0

I was lucky enough to find a barely used Kayakpro Speedtroke for a big discount.  I love the thing!  The top hand is used in conjunction with the bottom hand to spear the water at the catch.  Then it continues to sweep across as the bottom hand pulls back and away.  That's one of the things I practice on and especially off the water.  I stare straight ahead and try to make sure that my hand is sweeping across my body consistently.  

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3 days 15 hours ago #35563 by SpaceSputnik

kwolfe wrote: Check out this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5kfVCJcez0

I was lucky enough to find a barely used Kayakpro Speedtroke for a big discount.  I love the thing!  The top hand is used in conjunction with the bottom hand to spear the water at the catch.  Then it continues to sweep across as the bottom hand pulls back and away.  That's one of the things I practice on and especially off the water.  I stare straight ahead and try to make sure that my hand is sweeping across my body consistently.  


This is a very good video, thank you.

Current: Think Evo II, Stellar SES 1g.
Past: Epic V7

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3 days 15 hours ago - 3 days 15 hours ago #35564 by SpaceSputnik
kwolfe Are my hands too low? That nice video above is shot from an angle, I think hands are higher but I can't tell how much higher.


Thank for taking time to view my stuff.
EDIT Actually never mind, I see it better towards the end of the vid.

Current: Think Evo II, Stellar SES 1g.
Past: Epic V7

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3 days 15 hours ago #35566 by kwolfe
Replied by kwolfe on topic Technique critique please
I don't think you hands are too low.  I paddle flat water so I have the opportunity to assess myself on the water without distraction.  When I'm paddling longer distances (greater than 6 miles), I drop my hands a bit so my shoulders don't get as tired.  I did a 3 mile race about a month ago and hands were eye level.  It's gives me better leverage.

Here's a couple outher videos that show what I'm talking about in regards to the sweeping hand.  Especially the last one.  Everything works as one unit.  Crazy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN2Piq42YNk
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30bil7OtiVo
 
www.facebook.com/kayak.pro/videos/878975542264085/

Last one you'll have to copy and past but it's worth it.
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3 days 14 hours ago #35567 by SpaceSputnik
Yeah, I totally see the sweep. It makes a lot of sense.

kwolfe wrote: I don't think you hands are too low.  I paddle flat water so I have the opportunity to assess myself on the water without distraction.  When I'm paddling longer distances (greater than 6 miles), I drop my hands a bit so my shoulders don't get as tired.  I did a 3 mile race about a month ago and hands were eye level.  It's gives me better leverage.

Here's a couple outher videos that show what I'm talking about in regards to the sweeping hand.  Especially the last one.  Everything works as one unit.  Crazy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN2Piq42YNk
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30bil7OtiVo
 
www.facebook.com/kayak.pro/videos/878975542264085/

Last one you'll have to copy and past but it's worth it.


Current: Think Evo II, Stellar SES 1g.
Past: Epic V7

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3 days 11 hours ago #35571 by PharmGeek
Replied by PharmGeek on topic Technique critique please
something to me looks off....a few things I think are an issue...keep in mind, I'm an amateur...I'm coached plenty by now and I *think* I know enough to say something, but id confirm my thoughts with others with greater authority...that pesky disclaimer aside:

I could be wrong, but I think you may be kinda pulling at the erg with your biceps before the "exit" phase...it looks like to me you are getting the catch, then pulling with back/core, but continue to pull some with biceps then exit....once you break that elbow much from "straight" or "a bit broken" your power phase should be over....ill watch the video again and see if I spot this, but I think I did.

I think also you may be at times (I think it is varying) rushing the catch a bit, and unloading your rotation a bit before the catch....watch in slow mo....its hard to see when the "catch" is on an erg, but I think your shoulders are square at times at that point perhaps? That's something I have to watch out for...early unloading...instead I setup then unload that power. I think you are a bit of "hitting the catch" too on the erg....I did this for a while...I don't think you are doing it 100% of the time, but I see a bit of a surge in that phase....ive found for me, thinking of slowing down that bit of the portion of the stroke has helped me tremendously...so in my mind I'm like "ok, slow on that, set it up, maintain my rotation, setup slow smooth, and THEN comes the power"...for a while on the erg, I did just kinda punch at it...and on the water...slapping at the water....

Ive heard people chat about the top hand in different ways...my personal view is that I do drive some power from the top hand into the stroke....not a ton...but also, its not insignificant...I drive or intiate the catch with my top hand, and that power down through the shaft persists for me through the power phase....and once it feels less resistance much, I know the power phase is really over...which at tempo, feels almost instant after the catch....all that said...I keep my top hand think about it around my ear level for the setup, elbow bent, top hand kinda close to my face really, and that top hand does not bend to straight much until my exit phase, then it does punch forward...I think yours may be punching forward a bit soon....

Also, hard to see based on your seat and the erg...you may be knees too high... and I'm surprised your legs don't drop during the power phase almost to dead flat at the knee..mind tend too on the erg, although in the ski bucket the hump is there so its not exactly the same...

The big thing I don't see on the front view is that if you are doing it right (in my mind)...you setup the catch...at that point, the low hand's shoulder is forward facing, top hand shoulder behind, and no power yet applied from leg drive, still wound up...then as you unload that power, there is the rotation, you are "stepping off" the foot board, the top hand holds your posture in a semi fixed position, with the top hand as you rotate seeming on the front view to "slide across your face across the horizon"...your top hand I think kinda seems to stay a bit later over where it started...when I watch it back, it varies in how your top hand is moving...sometimes its not, other times it does a bit...there is some non-conformity in the technique....ill try and later tonight get on my erg and see if I can replicate what you are doing, then attempt to show you what I think is a correction and see if you can spot a difference? 
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3 days 9 hours ago #35572 by SpaceSputnik

PharmGeek wrote: something to me looks off....a few things I think are an issue...keep in mind, I'm an amateur...I'm coached plenty by now and I *think* I know enough to say something, but id confirm my thoughts with others with greater authority...that pesky disclaimer aside:

I could be wrong, but I think you may be kinda pulling at the erg with your biceps before the "exit" phase...it looks like to me you are getting the catch, then pulling with back/core, but continue to pull some with biceps then exit....once you break that elbow much from "straight" or "a bit broken" your power phase should be over....ill watch the video again and see if I spot this, but I think I did.

Hmm. I will watch it. Right now, I am thinking that it's rather a byproduct of the punchout.

I think also you may be at times (I think it is varying) rushing the catch a bit, and unloading your rotation a bit before the catch....watch in slow mo....its hard to see when the "catch" is on an erg, but I think your shoulders are square at times at that point perhaps? That's something I have to watch out for...early unloading...instead I setup then unload that power. I think you are a bit of "hitting the catch" too on the erg....I did this for a while...I don't think you are doing it 100% of the time, but I see a bit of a surge in that phase....ive found for me, thinking of slowing down that bit of the portion of the stroke has helped me tremendously...so in my mind I'm like "ok, slow on that, set it up, maintain my rotation, setup slow smooth, and THEN comes the power"...for a while on the erg, I did just kinda punch at it...and on the water...slapping at the water....


Yeah, that's fair. Need so slow down the "catch".



Ive heard people chat about the top hand in different ways...my personal view is that I do drive some power from the top hand into the stroke....not a ton...but also, its not insignificant...I drive or intiate the catch with my top hand, and that power down through the shaft persists for me through the power phase....and once it feels less resistance much, I know the power phase is really over...which at tempo, feels almost instant after the catch....all that said...I keep my top hand think about it around my ear level for the setup, elbow bent, top hand kinda close to my face really, and that top hand does not bend to straight much until my exit phase, then it does punch forward...I think yours may be punching forward a bit soon....

Also, hard to see based on your seat and the erg...you may be knees too high... and I'm surprised your legs don't drop during the power phase almost to dead flat at the knee..mind tend too on the erg, although in the ski bucket the hump is there so its not exactly the same...


Keep in mind that my seat is placed on an additional piece of wood, so there will always be space under. Having said that, I find myself extremely sensitive to leg length and I am very comfortable with the way it is now. And yes, the hump. If I drop any lower then I'd be hitting the hump in my Evo. Not much of limb length to go around in my case.




The big thing I don't see on the front view is that if you are doing it right (in my mind)...you setup the catch...at that point, the low hand's shoulder is forward facing, top hand shoulder behind, and no power yet applied from leg drive, still wound up...then as you unload that power, there is the rotation, you are "stepping off" the foot board, the top hand holds your posture in a semi fixed position, with the top hand as you rotate seeming on the front view to "slide across your face across the horizon"...your top hand I think kinda seems to stay a bit later over where it started...when I watch it back, it varies in how your top hand is moving...sometimes its not, other times it does a bit...there is some non-conformity in the technique....ill try and later tonight get on my erg and see if I can replicate what you are doing, then attempt to show you what I think is a correction and see if you can spot a difference? 


This is where I am getting lost a bit, but that's ok. The vids kwolve posted give me a good visual of the sweep, I will be working on that. I am sure a week or two later it will look different anyways. I find that replicating what I see in a good video is easier  than trying to piece a motion from a bunch of written notes. 

Current: Think Evo II, Stellar SES 1g.
Past: Epic V7

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3 days 6 hours ago #35573 by PharmGeek
Replied by PharmGeek on topic Technique critique please
I’ll attempt a video on my erg - upload to YouTube and post it for your consideration. 
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3 days 2 hours ago #35575 by Wombat661
Replied by Wombat661 on topic Technique critique please
Recommend you pay for the $37 monthly Coach Chalupsky drills until it feels right. His drills really works. Here is what I learned.
Doesn't look like you have a distinct catch. Wing paddle must have a distinct catch.
The lower arm should be straight when you stab the water during the catch. Straight arm force you to stab the water. Lower arm must remain straight until paddle is next to your knee. That is the end of the power stroke. Then you can bend the elbow to lift the paddle out. Feels weird, but it works. Coach Chalupsky's drills force you to do it right.
Additional benefit to his drills was when I did it right, the shoulder stopped hurting.

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3 days 48 minutes ago - 2 days 17 hours ago #35576 by Henning DK
I think you must realize that there are three different types of paddling:
  1. Flat paddle blade, sea kayak style (more arms, fixed leg position)
  2. Wing paddle blade, K1 and surfski (rotation and leg drive)
  3. No paddle blade - ergometer style (leg drive and rotation, but no water)
To practice wing paddle style in an ergometer is difficult, because you have no restraints on catch and exit and it's all about pulling that cord.
My advice would be to try to improve your technique on the water, and to transfer this to the ergo trying to get the same feeling. But basically, ergo is for physical training, and you may have to refocus on technique when back on the water.

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3 days 9 minutes ago #35577 by waverider
Replied by waverider on topic Technique critique please
I like to think of top hand coming across not forward. Having it coming across helps the lower arm to stay straight/straighter causing the blade to go out wide, as a wing should. Forward arm only then starts to go forward relative to torso as the blade exits the water setting up for opposite catch. As mentioned on an ergo you dont naturally go out wide which happens naturally in the real world with a wing.

I dont focus on leg drive, rather on rotation, with one shoulder coming back and dragging the arm with it ,and the other pushing forward. The leg then becomes the fulcrum and instinct makes you straighten it. As this is a reaction to rotation it automatically times itself right.

The butt can move in the seat, so if in stationary, or low load condition, back of knee touches hump of boat you have maximum stability. As power builds you dont straighten your leg to the max so your butt creeps forward in bucket, back of knee stops touching. Stability is less important when you have momentum, the focus then is on smooth power with constant bend in legs.. This is a trick I picked up from K1 where there is no hump and you can lock leg straight at rest and less restrictive seat to make butt sliding easier. If your ergo has a moving seat you will be able to demonstrate this as it creeps forward under power.

Introduction the micro pause prior to the catch ensures a more positive catch and provides a check that everything is where it should be.

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2 days 16 hours ago #35579 by PharmGeek
Replied by PharmGeek on topic Technique critique please
Here is my crude attempt at putting my thoughts on video for your consumption 

I semd my clips to my coach who coaches me and I think there is value in a coach so you feel confident in advice 

having said that, here ya go 

https://youtu.be/m0Fh2R5K-U8
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2 days 15 hours ago - 2 days 15 hours ago #35580 by SpaceSputnik
Thank you, appreciate the video.
Easy enough to follow actually. I also can string up my gopro above and get a visual like yours.

PharmGeek wrote: Here is my crude attempt at putting my thoughts on video for your consumption 

I semd my clips to my coach who coaches me and I think there is value in a coach so you feel confident in advice 

having said that, here ya go 

https://youtu.be/m0Fh2R5K-U8


Current: Think Evo II, Stellar SES 1g.
Past: Epic V7

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1 day 17 hours ago #35582 by AndyS
Replied by AndyS on topic Technique critique please
I think you’re not rotating your torso. It’s all arms, pull and punch. Check out Ivan Lawler’s excellent tutorial. You can watch it 20x and still find something new.

https://youtu.be/VqXIF4ToUcE

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1 day 11 hours ago #35585 by Steve Hansen
Agree with AndyS. Get on your erg with your arms out straight in front, with hands at paddle width but without the paddle bar. Now practice torso rotation without bending your arms. Imagine paddling without bending your arms much. Think of your arms as linkage only, not as the power source.

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1 day 6 hours ago #35589 by Wingnut
Replied by Wingnut on topic Technique critique please
Thanks PharmGeek for posting your video.  I've never seen a paddling video shot from this angle and I found it really helpful.

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1 day 5 hours ago #35590 by PharmGeek
Replied by PharmGeek on topic Technique critique please

Wingnut wrote: Thanks PharmGeek for posting your video.  I've never seen a paddling video shot from this angle and I found it really helpful.


yeah - I think I may be one of few to do it but I feel it is a great camera angle - if seen surfski videos by Oscar Chalupsky with some kinda mast stern rig that gives an almost similar view and that gave me the idea of an over head erg look - the over head look helps to see the rotation better in ways I think...but each perspective helps I think in some way perhaps. 

To the OP - do some more technique videos on that erg soon but slow it waaaay way down - that will help you to better see perhaps issues - up at high speed the transition from power phase to exit is a tad harder to visualize - if you slow down by 60%+ and post the issues may pop out visually more?

good luck! 

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