Technique critique please

7 months 3 weeks ago #35622 by PharmGeek
Replied by PharmGeek on topic Technique critique please
finally...for now, I agree with kwolfe...and perhaps even more important...if you can see stats improving with tweaks, increasing output with less effort....that MUST mean improvement amIright?! :D 

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7 months 3 weeks ago #35624 by SpaceSputnik
Thanks guys!
Here is another one. Trying replicate a more distinct power phase with down-the-shaft effort. Seem to make sense to me.


(I will reply to comments later today, a little swamped at the moment)

Current: Epic 18x Sport, Stellar SES 1g.
Past: Think Evo II, Epic V7

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7 months 3 weeks ago #35625 by SpaceSputnik

PharmGeek wrote: looks pretty good really....you are getting I think good rotation...its very difficult watching the uploaded youtube video to track along on your shape during the power phase because its such a fleeting moment, then the arm straightens...I shoot often with my iPhone for this in slow mo mode and it works quite well (food for thought).


You can watch youtube videos in slow motion, it's on the gear menu. I actually like just pushing it out to youtube and review later in slomo, it's easier than mock with local players, copy files around at all that.

One thing id try is go back and shoot this video again...do everything else you are doing (I'm more convinced now you are doing much totally right as you go on, for whatever that is worth)....but think about before applying the power, have the top hand almost touching your face...or far closer to your body...maybe as a drill, touch your ear with your top hand fist for a moment, then come out and go for the catch...if that makes sense? I think as I watch the video, it *looks* like at times you come in wide with the top hand for the catch, and perhaps (and this is hard to visualize I think and I think it may be varying) you are spearing that catch, and as you pull, you break your power phase form down....My suspicion or curiosity is that I feel like everything looks almost right, but if you bring that top hand in closer before applying the catch just before the moment of the catch, and create a more vertical angle of the pole, then apply force and unload your rotation, the shape of your stroke may look a bit different....but even as it is...it looks mostly to me like you are applying your force of the power phase through the rotation and not from your arms (lower arm biceps)....




Awesome, thanks for the confirmation. I will try with top arm close, however there's some disparity in styles here. Oscar, I think brings it pretty close like you say, but Kenny told me to keep it further (and I believe Ian Lawler also uses a similar position). What I see in K1 style is also not as close. But, doesn't hurt trying.
I certainly do come wide and weird at times...gotta work on the muscle memory.



I think some will continue to think they see you just punching forward and not rotating because the video transitions from the power phase to the exit phase so very rapidly, as well as because you start the stroke out a tad wide perhaps with the top hand and less verticle at times? 



Yeah I tend to go wide, that's pretty clear. Perhaps watch my latest vid, I think it's a little better there.



Also, I do a drill from time to time and just purposefully paddle in what I hope is entirely perfect form but very very slow, like painfully slow (like for each stroke gets a slow "one-one-thousand, two one thousand, three...")....then slowly increase the tempo....to full speed....maybe the progression takes in total 2 min....ill post such a video later as food for thought....slowing it WAAAY down is not I suppose entirely realistic, but it seems to help remind me and check as a way to ensure I'm not breaking down form? 



Worth trying.

Good luck...hate that this is "emotionally taxing" for you.....I get that...for me technique chats feel kinda like a mindF$% really, I much much prefer to send footage to my coach to review....and trust feedback from that one source....then I can keep working on it, but not have lack of confidence in my approach.....id leave these discussions feeling overwhelmed perhaps and perhaps too questioning of everything? At the same time, this is free and I think all the advice given seems, um to me, sound :) 


Well, what I had a bit of difficulty with is a volume of responses claiming that I arm paddle. I believe it was more nuanced that that. I felt that the power came from rotation initially as well with arm punching out too early and like you said maybe some shape breakdown. So, no, not quite arm paddling, but rather incorrect paddle trajectory as well  incorrect power application (down the shaft). But you know, it's silly trying to defend the very technique I put up for critique :D

In terms of using a teacher, coach, etc...I don't do too well with this form of learning. I often times find the discussion is lacking, they sometimes misread the videos and stamp a stereotypical error on you that they think they see. I had this issue with online music lessons from a big name musician. It felt counterproductive, I stopped video exchanges and just studied using the materials but on my own, sometimes asking questions of forums. It works much better for me overall as I get to try different things, understand why incorrect doesn't work and which form of correct works best for me. The downside is people slapping you with stereotypes a lot, but there's usually one or two people willing to hear you out and actually provide ongoing help just because.  Another benefit is talking to folks who recently went through a similar learning process, not career musicians or athletes who have been in it since childhood and simply may not truly relate to struggles of a middle aged guy learning a complex skill from scratch.

Current: Epic 18x Sport, Stellar SES 1g.
Past: Think Evo II, Epic V7

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7 months 3 weeks ago #35626 by SpaceSputnik

kwolfe wrote: You're making good progress man.  The fact that you are maintaining the same speed with less noticeable effort is a really good thing.  It's indicative of better technique.  I find the same thing on the water.  I can do high temp efforts and then slow that tempo down making each stroke precise and deliberate.  Funny part is, the speeds are the same and one feels less taxing.  Your hands are definitely working together as one unit better.

Keep watching those videos and comparing to yours.  Also, just a thought but if you can pick up a cheap mirror to place in front of you, that makes a world of difference when it comes to real time feeback.


Thank you.
I am using a gopro live-streaming to my phone attached just above me feet, so I get to see myself from every possible angle. There's a small lag and the screen is small, so I often make short recordings and review on the spot. Since it's all done from the phone at my feet, it is a fairly efficient process. Not sure if I'd be able to truly perceive a life image as I paddle anyways.

Current: Epic 18x Sport, Stellar SES 1g.
Past: Think Evo II, Epic V7

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7 months 3 weeks ago - 7 months 3 weeks ago #35627 by SpaceSputnik

PharmGeek wrote: also, a tangent...I loved listening to Oscar through that technique clinic video you posted on your youtube channel. 

...
Put another way "I like to feel like its my hip grabbing out for that catch, then once I got it, the hip pulls the power phase"...if that makes sense? I have no idea if that's a good thought, but it kinda how I feel in my own movements at times...I rather suspect what "clicks" with people over time varies...I think its common when you read about technique that people find words, drills, process that help just varies a good deal?


Yes, it makes sense and I often felt this connection between hip and low hand. I like this sort of little narratives/imagery a lot.




Another thing that helped me with my form, was that I would spend some time paddling focusing on the idea that I would only apply rotation power through the top hand....not paddle hard or anything per se, but think like "ok, setup, apply force, rotation, but apply the force primarily from my top hand, and not pull from the bottom as a focus point"....in doing this I feel it helped me to encourage keeping that form during the power phase, because if you drive that stroke primarily thinking about the top hand as the conduit for the power from your rotation, you FEEL you must maintain that good form because if you do not, the power will dissipate....if your top hand is all screwy, say far away and pushed forward, you still CAN pull with the bottom hand to "save" the stroke...but if your focus is for this drill on making the top hand the almost exclusive conduit for the force that drives the stroke, it seems far more difficult to break form? 


Very much agree, you can always do a lat pull, it will move you along, but it won't develop good rotation and this"push the lake/ocean sideways" feeling that you get using top hand.

Current: Epic 18x Sport, Stellar SES 1g.
Past: Think Evo II, Epic V7

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7 months 3 weeks ago #35631 by PharmGeek
Replied by PharmGeek on topic Technique critique please
looking over at the erg#8 video...I'm kinda mulling over your top hand position, and direction/trajectory and form during the power phase...it seems odd to me...compare it to tim knut technique youtube video as a point of comparison regarding the "shape" or trajectory of the path of the top hand...video on youtube entitled "Knut. Best technician ever?" and start at 1:05.....I'm not sure I follow advice about a "smiley face" mentioned on here prior...does tim knut or other pros having that shape in their stroke? 

its hard to see what your hips are doing in these videos...but your knees in #8 seem to be a tad inactive..with a shallow movement up and down...that generally means your hips are not pivoting forward and back enough and delivery a less distant catch and a subsequent shorter power phase? 

More food for thought.

Ill try and post another video of my own erg stroke for comparison more...be cool actually to take a known very good erg technique and like stack video one on top of the other and watch them at the same time and see differences...yeah, that sounds pie in the sky but yeah, its a thought. 

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7 months 3 weeks ago #35632 by PharmGeek
Replied by PharmGeek on topic Technique critique please
This is an older video I did for my own looking and submissions - but you can compare for whatever that is worth...

my legs in leg drive likely go too far regarding extension but when throwing down power and cadence on erg it’s hard as there is no bucket to have the leg touch and stop - either way - the hips should pivot back and forth nicely along with shoulders...

https://youtu.be/n9QC-Po-qB4

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7 months 3 weeks ago - 7 months 3 weeks ago #35633 by SpaceSputnik

PharmGeek wrote: looking over at the erg#8 video...I'm kinda mulling over your top hand position, and direction/trajectory and form during the power phase...it seems odd to me...compare it to tim knut technique youtube video as a point of comparison regarding the "shape" or trajectory of the path of the top hand...video on youtube entitled "Knut. Best technician ever?" and start at 1:05.....I'm not sure I follow advice about a "smiley face" mentioned on here prior...does tim knut or other pros having that shape in their stroke? 

its hard to see what your hips are doing in these videos...but your knees in #8 seem to be a tad inactive..with a shallow movement up and down...that generally means your hips are not pivoting forward and back enough and delivery a less distant catch and a subsequent shorter power phase? 

More food for thought.

Ill try and post another video of my own erg stroke for comparison more...be cool actually to take a known very good erg technique and like stack video one on top of the other and watch them at the same time and see differences...yeah, that sounds pie in the sky but yeah, its a thought. 


Yes, #8 was not very good. Here's another one:


Your video is good!
How tall are you? I fear that with my proportions if try to replicate your paddle trajectory I will be slapping it sideways a lot.

Also is it me or your hands are closer together than mine? I set mine up so my elbows at 90- degrees when I lay the paddle on my head.

Current: Epic 18x Sport, Stellar SES 1g.
Past: Think Evo II, Epic V7

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7 months 3 weeks ago #35639 by PharmGeek
Replied by PharmGeek on topic Technique critique please
I'm 6 feet tall even....I set my grip such that my elbow over my head are just a tad less than 90 degrees...just what feels right for me to be honest...and I think what you may be seeing too is that my pole on my erg is longer than yours? hard to tell...I forget how long mine is, ill measure it tonight...

I do not think your different height or stature will matter at all as far as the "proper form"....for those with smaller frames, it I would think it just means a shortened power phase perhaps  but the shape of the "idealized" frame would be no different in my opinion?

I watched your video #9.....the very first few strokes you took looked right to me...in the sense of the top arm  holding form....that is, what I see when you were that slow, and that deliberate....your top arm is at elbow 90 degrees, and that angle is held through the power phase, and fixed, and that holds through the power phase, and the top hand fist crossed in front of you...then you break that top hand elbow 90 degree after the exit of the "blade" and punch forward for next catch.....however, a few strokes later in your slow series, I think it starts to break down a bit....what I saw is that you like the few before setup nicely as far as top hand elbow 90 degrees, but during the power phase, even at that slow speed, that 90 degrees begins to straighten out during the power phase, you are motivating the top hand fist to move forward during that power phase....then when you get more up to speed, that happens more readily...I suspect that this is a habit formed, and will take effort and Oscar esque drills to stop it? 

The above is me just focusing on that one aspect....I think for the first 4-5 strokes though, work from that good position, and build? Ill watch it again and say more as I was focusing only on that one thing....

I did an erg workout last night and was thinking about this aspect...that top arm at 90 degrees is fixed during that power phase...its like in a pushup position, apply power feeling the resistance of the water/ropes as you move though the rotation in the power phase...that is one key in my head...its a short little snippet of time, but arguably it is everything...it is the power...the exit, recovery, and then setup is all necessary movements to simply setup for a new deep catch and execution of that next fleeting moment of power...

I think slowing way way way down being absurdly deliberative at this point even to the point of it feeling absurd will pay dividends to unbreak some habits with respect to this. 
The following user(s) said Thank You: SpaceSputnik

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7 months 2 weeks ago - 7 months 2 weeks ago #35648 by SpaceSputnik
I started doing slow starts like you say. It feels odd because when the erg is at a standstill, at exit time there's too much resistance to make an effortless exit. I need to push in some during power phase to get the flywheel going. I suppose it's a bit of an erg skill I need to develop.
If I lengthen the rope the catch point moves past my feet towards me.
When flywheel has at least some momentum the exit is easy and it feels more or less "true".

EDIT: no longer spamming this topic with videos. You can see my onging uloads  here

Current: Epic 18x Sport, Stellar SES 1g.
Past: Think Evo II, Epic V7

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