Whats Fastest ski for flatwater that ok in ocean

10 years 9 months ago #6696 by gnome
I live in land so 1st priority is fast flatwater then from time to time out in the ocean in smallish swell thats wind swell chop most of the time.
I had a go on a Fenn Elite and compared to my so call fast Multisport kayak the Fenn blew the kayak away and that was even against a fairly strong head wind. I was amazed. I reakon the Fenn would give my K1sprint something to worry about over 2ks to 5ks. 5ks or more the Fenn would eat the K1sprint no worries at all.
So Flat water 1 ocean 2
What's a rocket ship in that enviroment.
Cheers
Gnome

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10 years 9 months ago #6697 by AdamV10L
All the top end ocean skis have good flat water speed and unless you have spent a lot of time in a K1, most people would be faster on an ocean ski (in the flat) over longer distances.

Some skis with less rocker than the Fenn such as the Epic V12 appear to have an edge on the flat as well as having a venturi that can be closed to further reduce drag.

They go pretty well in the ocean as well!

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10 years 9 months ago #6698 by superted
Gnome for your "Rocket Ship" criteria take a GPS with you and try a Think Uno Max ;-)

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10 years 9 months ago #6699 by thames
Depending on who you talk to all the 6.5m skis are supposedly too long for optimised flat water speed. Unless you can maintain 13-14 kph ave on the flat then the increased wetted area can not overcome the advantage of the extra length.

So it would be interesting to compare flat water time trials in a slightly shorter ski like the carbonology atom (5.95m) and see if times are better than the uno or elite.

No matter which ski you go for it would definitely be worth having a retractable bailer installed.

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10 years 9 months ago #6700 by Rightarmbad
There was a study commissioned by the kayak blokes to test the length theory.
I have a copy of this somewhere, it also let's the cat out of the bag that the study was done using the then minimum width. Because the modeling was quite difficult, they studied the models using the minimum width as the waterline width.
Now the waterline of a modern kayak is way less than the old minimum width specification.
The results of the study showed that the existing length was two centimeters longer than optimum when using that old width spec.
So I can guarantee that if the length restriction was lifted, K1 would simply go faster than they do now.
If a surf ski was made with the same tippy hull profile as a K1, they would be faster than a K1, as now they are definitely restricted by it's length as it stands now, with no minimum width specification.
Possibly some of the boasting of Oscar about a V12 being the fastest thing in the universe and just as fast as a K1 is because of this.
So in reality, there could be faster boats than a K1, but there is no market to build them because of the rules.
I haven't sat in a Think, but a V12 is bloody quick compared to V10 in the flat.
By my gps, at least a kmh faster.
I would love to see a showdown between a marathon K1 and the fastest ski's.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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10 years 9 months ago #6701 by mckengmsurfski
I would concur with AdamV10L that most of the high performance skis fit the bill for what you're asking...
I doubt that there's much in it between the Think Uno/Max, Epic V12, Nelo Ocean Ski, Vadja Orca, Carbonology Atom, Fenn Elite/Elite SL, Stellar SES. Which you would choose is most likely to come down to personal preference, fit, availability in your area, cost compared to layup, how stable you feel in the ski, etc... You should check out Wes Echols' chart on www.surfskiracing.com for a well thought out comparison of some of the top skis. There are also a couple of articles by Cliff Roach on www.keystonekayaks.com in which he does flatwater reviews of various Nelo Surfskis and compares them to the Epic V12 Ultra as well as his K1.
I paddle an Epic V12 Ultra on the flat as well as in conditions and love it. The bailer is great on the flat and the secondary stability is great in conditions. Still, I doubt you could go wrong with any of the skis mentioned above.

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10 years 9 months ago #6705 by [email protected]
Not wanting to hijack the post - but what is your take on the V12 in the ocean - on decent sized down-winds. I've paddled it on the flat and it went real nice. Cant seem to find any articles on its performance in the ocean (and there aren't any where I am). And then to boot, Epic paddlers (Elite and A grade paddlers) seem to prefer the V10 (when you look at race results). What gives?

To get back to the forum topic (and not having paddled the other ski's mentioned in earlier posts) the V12 flies on the flat.

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10 years 9 months ago #6706 by nell
The major factor for the boat length / speed equation that hasn't been mentioned is body weight / displacement. Lighter paddlers will go faster in shorter boats, and heavier paddlers - longer boats. I don't have equations or specifics, but the general idea is that the ICK K1 length - at marathon speeds - is optimized for about 150 lbs whereas the 20' waterline is optimized for about 180 lbs - roughly.

Otherwise, given a 180 lb paddler, the top race skis from the major brands, i.e. V12, V10, Uno, Fenn Elite, Huki, are so close in speed that it's splitting hairs, really. But, I think the skis have slightly different drag profiles at easy to moderate speeds, AND a 150 lb lightweight paddler in each ski will change the drag profile of each ski, so at a leisurely 10kph pace or for a lightweight paddler one ski might actually be faster than another but at the elite and sub-elite pace of 12-14 kph and with a 180 lb paddler, I think they're really the same.

For years I've trained mostly on flat water with HRM and gps at about 195 lb body weight with millenium, mako6, Icon, Fenn elite, uno, V12, and others, and you know what? my speed at race pace remained unchanged between them all. Some felt like they had better glide or something at moderate efforts, but the top end and marathon pace varied by no more than 0.1 mph 0.16 kph) between them all.

So, for me at my weight, it more or less comes down to comfort, how fun that particular ski is to paddle, and ease of getting back on if I should fall off. Erik

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10 years 9 months ago #6708 by mckengmsurfski
I'm probably not the best one to ask about the V12 in big downwind conditions b/c where I live (east coast of US), we just don't get them like they do in California, Hawaii, Australia, and S.A. In the small to moderate conditions we see around here with the surf rudder on it works well for me. I qualify that by stating that I'm a novice hack when it comes to ocean paddling and probably not the one to make a legit assessment b/c the only other skis I've paddled in the ocean are a Synergy and a Honcho Guevara. What I did find was that it has a much different feel than the Synergy and Guevara I had previously, I suspect b/c of the volume in the back of those skis compared to the V12.
I'm not sure about elite paddlers preferring the V10 over the V12. Clint Robinson won the Molokai on a V12 in big conditions last year, Barton only races a V12, and didn't McGregor pretty much use a V12 most of '09?

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10 years 9 months ago - 10 years 9 months ago #6709 by nell
Some tall elite paddlers are too tall to fit in the V12, thus they use the V10.

I paddle a V12, and with the bailer closed and on glassy water with no other ripples, I would believe that it might be a hair faster than the V10. But, throw in wake from other skis, waves of 10 cm to 30 cm or more, and in those conditions, all the elite skis are pretty equivalent as I don't think anyone CAD's the decks of the boats for speed like they do the hulls. Erik

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10 years 9 months ago - 10 years 9 months ago #6712 by Dicko
I paddle with a mate who had a v12 and swapped to a green 7. On the flat both boats are fast, but down wind the green 7 is much quicker. The v12 is apparently quick in the flat and bigger stuff, but struggles in the smaller downwind. It seems to get bogged between waves. It seems if you have the strength or speed to push through the wave in front you can overcome the problem. The green 7 appears to be more stable.
The epic weighed 4kg less than the green 7 yet he seems to paddle faster in the heavier boat.....and he doesn't fall out any more.

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10 years 9 months ago #6713 by mckengmsurfski
I briefly owned a Red7 a couple of years ago and really liked a few aspects about it but hated a few more, though some of those are apparently mute now that they have the build quality up to snuff.
I would find it hard to believe that I would be as fast on the flat in the 7 versus the V12.
I've experienced the bog down on the smaller stuff in my V12 compared to my Synergy and Honcho and found if I lean back just a bit as I feel it coming the ski comes out of it and does fine.
The 7 I owned had a stability very similar to the V12 and I actually think the the V12 has more secondary stability than the 7. This was seconded by a friend who paddled both and was reluctant about the V12 at first, having fallen out of my 7 over and over again. But after just a couple of minutes he felt much more comfortable with the V12. Again, the 7 was one of the older ones, so that too may have changed.
I also remember that the 7 turns like a pig, which can be a real issue if you get on any narrower rivers or backwaters off the ocean. I found myself doing 3 point turnarounds on that ski more than once.
I suspect the 7 is faster in the ocean, I think it was designed as a true ocean ski... and now that they seem to have the build quality ironed out, if I spent 5 days a week doing downwinds in the ocean (which I don't) I'd say I would have to seriously consider one again.

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10 years 9 months ago #6715 by gnome
Thanks guys this has been very interesting. So with the length width ratio thingy, what does that mean?

Im 80/85kg so is there a length I should look for and width?

I will ask another question in a new post subject. Re V10 and Fenn Elite.
But your here now so here it goes any way.

On flatwater if I had a 14/16kg V10 and a 14/16 kg Elite would there be any speed difference?
I paddled a Elite the other night against a fairly strong head wind and did a fairly comfy 13km/h for my usual training run, and sprinted for 200m at 15km/h.
I usually paddle a Multisport kayak 6.2m long 42 wide and it hits the wall at 12km/h any more than that and its all max stength power so it cant be maintained for that long.
I just dont understand how the Elite went so fast so easily in comparison even though the lengths widths are so close its not funny.
So will a V10 go just as quick as a Elite with the same motor in it?

Paul

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10 years 9 months ago #6725 by Martin
Hi

Firstly , I have to say I don't have any financial or business attachment to Carbonology. I have just paddled an atom for the past 18 months.

The 5.95m and shape of this boat is a pure speed design. I have a V10 elite, millenium and Atom. All are quite different in what conditions suits what boat. I like all of the boats but the atom continues to suprise me.

I am a light 74kg, 44 years old and would class myself as an intermediate paddler, yet have raced against top paddlers on inland lake /dam races ( ~8km ). These paddlers have been on their race sprint kayaks and have muscles on their muscles. To a lot of suprise I have on occasion beat them all and have to say the boat has had a lot to do with it. Its a fast speed machine and is probably the best kept secret around. Mine has a single bullet scupper with the current models coming out with two. I personally don't believe you need two as the one is so efficient plus less drag.

So if you are looking for a racing ski primarily for lake and occasionally for sea seriously consider the Atom. If you are stable in a Fenn Elite or other top boats you wont have an issue. Only thing I have to do...on all boats...is put a butt pad in. All boat cockpits rub my arse raw!

If you want any pics I have plenty, just shoot me your email.
Cheers

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10 years 9 months ago #6726 by Dicko
Martin is right. The atom is easily the fastest boat on the market.
It is also the tippiest and the most difficult to remount.
If you are paddling in flat to small conditions this would be the boat of choice. If you are a tentative paddler who worries about falling out, this isn't the boat for you. In the right conditions these boats are rockets.

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10 years 9 months ago #6732 by bulldog
The Atom has been designed as a racing ski that will be fast in average race conditions ie flat water,side chop, head wind,average downwind conditions.It will feel tippy in its primary stability to an inexperienced paddler but has the same secondary stability as any of the other racing skis on the market.With a bit of practice and the right technique the remounting is not an issue(practice befor you paddle).Once you have spent some time in an Atom you will love it.

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10 years 9 months ago #6733 by mckengmsurfski
I toyed with the idea of an Atom but not being able to try one out, the question of stability has kept me away. I love the idea, but would have to have a go in one a couple of times considering the varying things i've heard from experienced paddlers regarding its stability in comparison to other high performance skis. The general response that I have gotten is that it is somewhat less stable than the others mentioned in this thread. Still, like I said, I'd love to be able to try one for myself, which is really what it comes down to in trying to figure which ski is 'right' for you.
The remount issue sounds somewhat similar to that of my old Synergy with its deep bucket and high sides. I found that it just meant that I needed to practice my remount a little more and I was fine and never found myself caught out trying to remount.

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10 years 9 months ago #6737 by cdo
Slightly off topic...but out of interest do you use a different technique to re-mount these deep bucket skis? Personally I need to tilt the ski towards me before the initial forward "jump" then once both legs are over fall into the bucket ultra quickly....but that might just be me especially with one leg which contains stainless steel rather than a normal thigh bone! Any alteration of technique or just the same technique but harder?

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10 years 9 months ago - 10 years 9 months ago #6738 by AR_convert
cdo wrote:

Slightly off topic...but out of interest do you use a different technique to re-mount these deep bucket skis? Personally I need to tilt the ski towards me before the initial forward "jump" then once both legs are over fall into the bucket ultra quickly....Any alteration of technique or just the same technique but harder?


I have the Carbonology Vault, the big brother to the Atom. The bucket is the same and I hadnt really thought too much about remounting until I was out in rough 2.5m swell with a 20-25 knot wind shortly after getting it, it wasnt until I fell out then did a few rolls trying to remount that I realised it was a different kettle of fish to my previous V10L.

After rolling over a few times using the side saddle method :dry: I tried the other method but as the sides are so high you cant get your chest deep enough into the boat to lower the centre of gravity enough to become stable.

I went back to the side saddle, tilted the boat towards me, sort of got in with my backside at an angle to the seat leaving the last leg out of the boat for stability then once I could do a forward stroke just lifted the last leg in and shimmied my backside to be sitting more square to the seat.

I've found that practising in flat water didnt help me at all, being out in moderate wind and swell makes it so much different.

Having said that, now that I know I can get back in I know that if I slow down, take the few seconds to time it I will get back in no worries.

While the V10L was easier to remount (and my V10 sport even easier) I would have come out of the V10L in those condtions a lot more often too :blush:

Always looking for the next boat :)

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10 years 9 months ago #6743 by MhojoNZ
I've paddled an Atom, a Vault, a Stellar SES, a Nelo, a V10L and used to own a V12 and before that a V10S. I train in a K1.I'm 73kg.

The Atom was heaps of fun on the river and in the harbour. I raced some guys in K1s - one creamed me but he is a national champion and 22 years younger! Was well ahead of the other paddler. Tried it in the surf and found it very unstable. However I think it's a strong contender in the AR market and have toyed with getting one for multisport races, especially given the option of a more robust lay-up and overstern rudder. The only thing that puts me off is the weight of this layup as some of my races involve a portage (might help the stability in the surf though). The V12 is very quick on the flat more in a straight-line sense - it lacks rocker and isn't very manoeuvrable.

The Nelo might be another option if you are mostly flat-water paddling. I found that my paddling technique was closest to the K1 in this - high seat and narrow at the catch. It's more manageable in the surf than the Atom and the paddling position is better. Ignore the weight recommendations Nelo publish - the issue is leg length as the cockpit is very short. If you are taller than 1.7m you need the Large.

I'm currently trying the Stellar SES. It seems at the more stable end of the faster ski's. It may or may not be as quick as the Nelo and the Atom but doesn't seem quite as responsive to paddle and therefore maybe not so much "fun".

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