× Tips and techniques for getting the most out of surfskiing.

Talk to me about cadence

8 months 1 week ago #37755 by waverider
Replied by waverider on topic Talk to me about cadence
Where I am at 60 years old, slight asthmatic
leisurely cruise - @60cad/115bpm/9kmh
exercise pace - 65 cad/ 125bpm/ 10kmh
Marathon race 70cad/135bpm/ 11kmh
Sprint race @80cad/145bpm+/13-14kmh
Anymore than that gasses me out, still some room for aerobic fitness as competition has been off the cards for most of this year. Working on upping the cadence without loosing technique. These are on intermediate ski flat water.  K1 is still work in progress, less physical effort but takes more concentration so not maxing out yet

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8 months 1 week ago #37756 by mrcharly
Replied by mrcharly on topic Talk to me about cadence
Can I make a suggestion?

Don't obsess to much with shortening your stroke.

Instead, look at the 'frame' created by your hands, arm, shoulders, when the paddle 'catches'. 
If you 'lock the frame', as you rotate, the paddle will sweep sideways and out (at the right point). It is just a small change to the paddle exiting completely.

When working on this, take a stroke - pause - take a stroke - pause - etc.

I worked on this and it changed my stroke. I previously had a reputation for 'scooping' and soaking anyone who paddled alongside me. Reputation gone - my stroke is smoother and I don't lift much water. 

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8 months 1 week ago - 8 months 1 week ago #37758 by Arcturus
Replied by Arcturus on topic Talk to me about cadence
That frame...from watching birds-eye videos of ski paddlers, it appears that it also includes the hips as part of the unit, moving as one with the upper body. Is my impression correct? I hope so, because it helps me visualize the rotation, and it does feel stronger.

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8 months 1 week ago #37759 by mrcharly
Replied by mrcharly on topic Talk to me about cadence
No, not at all.

The torso twists and hips turn, so they aren't locked. A lot of power comes from legs, then most from the muscles of the body. 

Ivan has some good videos on the role of the top hand and lower arm.

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8 months 1 week ago #37761 by manta
Replied by manta on topic Talk to me about cadence
I had a great paddle yesterday where most of what has been shared on this thread came together.

I have been paddling for three years and I think yesterday was literally the first time where I felt everything click. It was only for a few short minutes. So from a mental visualisation perspective I have been doing the following and I hope my explanation helps someone else. 
  1. Top hand, top shoulder and top hand hip are all connected
  2. Focus on taking the top hand hip forward as the torso rotates
  3. Once the stroke naturally completes, the paddle pops out of the water
  4. Repeat
When I started paddling I was focussing on my leg drive by pushing my bottom hand hip and leg straight to initiate the drive. It has a backward energy to it (only way I can describe it) whereas focussing on the forward motion puts me in the mindset of propelling the boat forward. I do not pull on the foot strap to push top hand hip forward, there is no need to do so because if your frame is locked in, it goes forward on its own.

I am hoping this mental picture is helping. I am sure for many of you this is completely old news but it clicked for me the first time yesterday. To bring it back to cadence, I felt the ability to change cadence a lot more natural. 

M

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8 months 1 week ago #37762 by waverider
Replied by waverider on topic Talk to me about cadence

manta wrote: I had a great paddle yesterday where most of what has been shared on this thread came together.

I have been paddling for three years and I think yesterday was literally the first time where I felt everything click. It was only for a few short minutes. So from a mental visualisation perspective I have been doing the following and I hope my explanation helps someone else. 

  1. Top hand, top shoulder and top hand hip are all connected
  2. Focus on taking the top hand hip forward as the torso rotates
  3. Once the stroke naturally completes, the paddle pops out of the water
  4. Repeat
When I started paddling I was focussing on my leg drive by pushing my bottom hand hip and leg straight to initiate the drive. It has a backward energy to it (only way I can describe it) whereas focussing on the forward motion puts me in the mindset of propelling the boat forward. I do not pull on the foot strap to push top hand hip forward, there is no need to do so because if your frame is locked in, it goes forward on its own.

I am hoping this mental picture is helping. I am sure for many of you this is completely old news but it clicked for me the first time yesterday. To bring it back to cadence, I felt the ability to change cadence a lot more natural. 

M


Excellent, I remember having that penny dropping moment. You get real weight on the blade and lever the opposite side around and a sense of driving top elbow towards rising knee. helps stability as you are moving mass towards centreline of ski

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8 months 1 week ago #37763 by kwolfe
Replied by kwolfe on topic Talk to me about cadence
The amazing thing is that, once you focus you energy in this way, keeping the same pace actually becomes less fatiguing.  It's not voodoo, but the fact that you are now using large muscle groups to propel yourself instead of smaller ones.  I had never realized how tiring it was making me by pulling the blade to far back.  My shoulders were cooked after a long paddle.  Now, lower and legs for bracing and initial pull, torso and hips to finish.  Your hands and arms are there simply to ensure a good catch.  

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8 months 1 week ago #37764 by Arcturus
Replied by Arcturus on topic Talk to me about cadence

manta wrote: I had a great paddle yesterday where most of what has been shared on this thread came together.

I have been paddling for three years and I think yesterday was literally the first time where I felt everything click. It was only for a few short minutes. So from a mental visualisation perspective I have been doing the following and I hope my explanation helps someone else. 

  1. Top hand, top shoulder and top hand hip are all connected
  2. Focus on taking the top hand hip forward as the torso rotates
  3. Once the stroke naturally completes, the paddle pops out of the water
  4. Repeat
When I started paddling I was focussing on my leg drive by pushing my bottom hand hip and leg straight to initiate the drive. It has a backward energy to it (only way I can describe it) whereas focussing on the forward motion puts me in the mindset of propelling the boat forward. I do not pull on the foot strap to push top hand hip forward, there is no need to do so because if your frame is locked in, it goes forward on its own.

I am hoping this mental picture is helping. I am sure for many of you this is completely old news but it clicked for me the first time yesterday. To bring it back to cadence, I felt the ability to change cadence a lot more natural. 

M


Thank you. Those steps are what I was trying to say in my question about the hip on each side being integral to the upper-body-side that is starting the stroke.

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8 months 1 week ago #37771 by Wombat661
Replied by Wombat661 on topic Talk to me about cadence
Thanks Manta for these two points.
  1. Top hand, top shoulder and top hand hip are all connected
  2. Focus on taking the top hand hip forward as the torso rotates
[font=Segoe UI, Segoe UI Emoji, Segoe UI Symbol, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Didn't believe it, but tried it this week. Connect the shoulder and arm together worked. The power then has to come from the leg. Amazing your arm keep wanting to do the work without you realizing it. Force them not to move, then only the legs do the work.
I have been paddling three years too starting with some horrible form.

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