Long slows....how and why?

8 years 2 months ago #17663 by Newbflat
So my question is basically what is the best way do a long slow paddle. Or more exactly what are the benefitsand why? I have a hard time going for a long "slow" ... It enevadably ends up a long moderate. Say I go for a 15 mile long slow, it ends up being 5 miles easy, 5 at a nice cruise and the last 5 fast-ish. I just can't seem to brake this habit and spend 15 miles paddling slowly. Am I defeating the point of a long slow? Should I set my heart monitor to keep me under a specific heart rate? Skis just make want to paddle faster and harder and I have a hard time keeping a good form if I'm not putting some effort. So.... What is the proper way to paddle a long slow and why?

Bill

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 2 months ago #17666 by Ranga
Replied by Ranga on topic Long slows....how and why?
Sorry I don't see the point of long and slow, personally a waste of time!
This is talking from experience having raced long multi day races and many of them over the years. Speed is more important if you want to come anywhere, however if you don't care where you come then do as you please, I enter RACES to race!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 2 months ago #17667 by Love2ski
Replied by Love2ski on topic Long slows....how and why?
My understanding is that to develop aerobic capacity (endurance) you need to get a heart rate above 70-75% of your max heart rate but below 85-90% of your max heartrate.

If you exercise below the limit you will not increase your endurance. Endurance increases the ability of your body to transport and use oxygen.

If you exercise above the limit you enter the anaerobic state which does not increase endurance.

Accordingly a long slow paddle could more accurately be described as a long paddle where your heartrate is high enough to improve your aerobic capacity which improves your endurance, but not so high as to enter the anearobic state.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 2 months ago #17668 by Hiro
Replied by Hiro on topic Long slows....how and why?
I have the feeling that some of us don't like the word "slow". Long Slow Paddle doesn't mean you should go as slow as a snail. You want to to increase muscle strength, endurance, and aerobic fitness. You should perform this effort at a constant pace of low to moderate intensity over an extended distance or duration. A long paddle a week (at least 2 hours) can help. If you don't like "Long Slow Distance", instead think "Long Steady Distance".

Start here : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_slow_distance

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 2 months ago #17672 by AndyN
Replied by AndyN on topic Long slows....how and why?
Agree, the word slow is definitely not where the focus should be.
A 2 hour paddle is important to me for a number of reasons:
Keeping my body used to sitting in a ski for a decent length of time.
Trying to paddle as efficiently as I can (not very) at a consistent heart rate between 75 and 80% works for me.
But also here in Dubai thrashing yourself for 2 hours in 35 + deg C doesn't usually end well for me :(

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 2 months ago #17677 by AR_convert
Comes back to the periodisation school of training. And those who had tried it will tell you that you definately get better performances when at your "peak". But there is a cost in that you have to step down and start again to give the body a break.

I have used it over a lifetime of triathlon and running but only decided to give it a go in paddling for a big race I was training for earlier this year.

Saw some great results. I tried to keep the training intensity up but my results slipped away again.

My long slow or sometime referred to as an active recovery paddle is 2 hours plus at 150bpm. I also give myself a break for a couple of weeks every so often not doing any form of training over 150bpm. At my age is helps reduce niggles and freshens me up to go hard at training again. And since doing this I haven't got sick, an issue I had quite frequently when not having some reduced intensity periods of training.

Always looking for the next boat :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 2 months ago #17679 by Hiro
Replied by Hiro on topic Long slows....how and why?
AndyN... We're lucky guys, paddling in hot waters. A lot of people on this forum do paddle in "beer cold waters". ;)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 2 months ago #17687 by AndyN
Replied by AndyN on topic Long slows....how and why?
Certainly not complaining Hiro! :-)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 2 months ago - 8 years 2 months ago #17694 by Kayaker Greg
I've always used a component of LSD within my training although I prefer to call it my endurance training. Depending on what time of the year its not necessarily slow, its more about the heart rate zone and effort being applied. I was at one time a successful although amateur cyclist and I base my ski paddle training on the same training principles. Its just one component and one source of energy that is being trained in a well rounded program.

My understanding of the benefits and what I experience are the following.

Increased endurance.
Trains my body to tap into its fat reserves for fuel.
Better weight control.
Increased blood capillarys to the working muscles.
A chance to recover from more intensive workouts.
A chance to develop a relaxed efficient technique.
Improved oxygen utilisation.
Prepares my body for more intensive efforts.
Mentally relaxing.
I enjoy going further and seeing different scenery.
It can be very "zen" like.
I enjoy it, as I do all training and intensity's but doing the same thing day after day would be boring.

I'm always looking for new ways to improve my training but still follow the basic formula of the hardest more intensive but shorter work outs first followed by the longer but less intensive workouts. And rest off course.

Generally my endurance workouts in the past have been in the 70%-80% of max heart rate zones. I try for twice a week and depending on the time of year usually 2-3.5 hours in the ski but sometimes longer in a sea kayak 4-5 hours.

This year I was looking to do things a little different with the benefit of hind sight from my past programs and started to follow a little of Mafetones training principles. I started 3 months ago and have just finished what I call my off season training. Mafetones principle is to train at a much lower level than what I am used to with keeping the HR much lower. I won't go into it in detail, you can research it yourself, but what I can say is that over 3 months off season I feel as though I have lost very little of what I gained over the last season fitness wise but have freshened right up and looking forward to building into the new season starting this week.

While through my off season I maintained a little anerobic threshold training while developing cadence work and strength training and some 100% sprint work, the rest periods and all other times except for when the limited amount of speed work was done was at extremely low levels, 6 weeks under 60% max heart rate (this was slow cadence to keep heart rate down and requires discipline and belief in what you are trying to achieve) and then 6 weeks at 65% max heart rate, and I've found my speed has increased to what I was doing last year during my endurance workouts but my heart rate is at a much lower level. This is all good for my fat utilisation along with the other benefits mentioned earlier.

Usually my weight climbs during the off season, doing this I have dropped a kilo from when I finished the last season, not much but as I said, usually I put on weight so this is a good thing. All from paddling at lesser effort. Because my body is not dipping into its sugar stores I don't get the cravings to refuel them so my diet is better and blood sugar levels more constant.

From here on as I approach my new season I will gradually lift my rate over the next few months from 65% up to 75% max heart rate during my endurance paddles but I will continue to mix in some of the much lower rates as well for recovery after the more intensive workouts I will be doing. Because to be honest I have not found it to be a disadvantage from doing the lower intensity, its all been good results wise for me to date.

And I never drink sports drinks, only drink water (unless I'm in a race over 1.5 hours long) and never eat during my endurance workouts unless its over 3.5 hours and then I might eat an apple if I get hungry.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 2 months ago #17719 by Newbflat
Replied by Newbflat on topic Long slows....how and why?
Damn... Had a long reply, posted it and I disappeared.

In short.... My limited understanding is like Greg discuses. Mostly learning to use fat over glycogen.

Can anyone recommend a training program to follow. I'm not looking to peak for a racing season or squeeze the last bit of proformance out of my body. I just want to progress at a resonable rate, not hurt myself or over train. I paddle 5-6 days a week all year so a plan might keep me in good form... And hopefully in good health.

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 2 months ago #17720 by Newbflat
Replied by Newbflat on topic Long slows....how and why?
Greg.. I will look into the Mafetones system.. But I'm curious. What max heart rate do you work from. My understanding is that most paddlers don't hit as high a max HR paddling as they do running or biking. At least thats the case with me. Are you calculating your HR percentages from a lower paddling max HR or are you using your max from say cycling?

Bill.

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 2 months ago #17721 by sAsLEX
Replied by sAsLEX on topic Long slows....how and why?
I can get a lot higher a lot easier paddling than running!

It pays to measure your max for each activity type.

If I tried to maintain the same HR that I can on the ski whilst running I think I would pass out.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 2 months ago #17722 by Kayaker Greg
When I was cycle racing at a national level 15 years ago my max heart rate was 202bpm. Some studies suggest your max heart rate reduces by a beat per year, if this is true or not I'm not sure, there might be conflicting information about with that. However, 202-15=187bpm and this is what I now estimate my maximum is without testing. I've certainly reached 187bpm paddling and felt maxed out and I use a lot of leg drive with my paddling, an arm paddler might have trouble getting as high as someone who uses more of their body? I also know what it feels like to train my anerobic threshold and my anerobic capacity so I'm comfortable with setting my max at 187bpm and if I ever go beyond that I will adjust my zones. However I've been training long enough to believe I will not go beyond that max heart rate. I don't cycle like I used to so won't get the opportunity to see if my heart rate would go higher competing at the level I used too.

In short, I would set your max heart rate at your known max that you have ever achieved or been tested for, regardless of the sport, as I have done subtract a beat per year since you were tested, once you are paddling correctly I believe that your max should still be your max. Some might disagree and thats fine, but thats what I do.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 2 months ago #17723 by Scode
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kayaker Greg

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 2 months ago #17736 by PaddleFaster
I am not qualified to comment on this subject as it pertains to racing, but I have done a lot of this kind of paddling over the past few years.

Though I have the balance of a one-legged fat arsed Hippo running on a log, last season I was averaging 24 to 37km's(15 to 23 miles) an outing, 3 to 5 times a week, with one week of 157km in a 5 day period.

For the most part, above all else, long and slow eats up a ton of calories; about 2000 to 3000 a trip give or take.

Let's face it...If your going to have the courage to walk around dressed in Spandex shorts, calorie burning (as well as a strategically placed sock)can be very important.

Because of the high calorie burn,if done in excess, the protein needs of long and slow can end up having your body eat up a good amount of muscle; thereby sapping your overall strength and in the end, reducing your shorter distance sprint speeds. If overdone on a regular/daily basis, it can even cause a slight weakening and atrophy in the legs muscles. So you have to make sure that you devote a few days a week to strengthening them also.

From my personal experience that's the bad that comes with overdoing long and slow.

As for the good...

For me personally, I have found that long and slow is very significant when it comes to improving your "grunt conditions" conditioning and performance; such as situations where you come up against current and/or, wind.

It can make aggravating, drudging paddles, against inlet currents and tides, a non-issue. Long and slow can also make upwind paddles your strength, when for many others it is a weakness.

When you hit an 8km stretch of water that has a 3.5km current running against you, combined with a 24-32km wind blowing in your face, long and slow can give you the ability to methodically and effortlessly, cut through the conditions like a hot knife through buttah.

Never breaking cadence... Never breaking stroke...

What I like to describe as a, beat your chest, manly-man, grunt, growl and snarl paddling experience.

( Start "The Gladiator" theme music here...)

Just you with the wind and spray in your face... Digging your heels into the foot board. Your back and shoulder muscles firing to a full pump, as you pull your cement laden paddle through the water without even giving it a second thought...

Freakin' RIGHT paddle stroke...Freakin' LEFT paddle stroke, (Insert spit over the gunwale and manly grunt here)

Freakin Right paddle stroke...Freakin LEFT paddle stroke, (Insert a second spit over the gunwale and manly grunt here)

THAT'S the benefit of long and slow !

Not to mention the fact that it can make you so tired, when you get home you won't even hear your wife yelling at you for the entire day.

Or is that just me?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 2 months ago - 8 years 2 months ago #17737 by Kayaker Greg
I think you have missed the point completely of long and slow and what you are describing is that you might be paddling long and slowly but it sounds like you are working way too hard. Its more about heart rate zones and not tapping into your sugar burning zone, there is plenty on tap to burn fat and you need to train your body to switch to using more of the available fat without going so hard that your consuming protein, dipping into your glycogen stores or totally wearing yourself out.

Or perhaps I'm reading you wrong.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 2 months ago #17738 by PaddleFaster
Greg, I openly admit that I quite often miss the point... :laugh:

Just stating that in excess, when done on a regular basis without proper rest, long and slow paddling can wear on the body.

Sort of in the same way doing too much distance running, without proper rest, can wear a body down.

Also saying that he greatest benefit I personally found from it was that it made paddling against current and up wind paddling.

In truth, was more an attempt of uneducated clueless humor than anything else as I killed an hour while he smoker warmed up for a rack of ribs.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 2 months ago #17739 by Kayaker Greg
Its all good.

It does bring up a point that I often find when paddling in groups, it seems that often groups are either training too hard and for not long enough for so called LSD, or not hard enough and for too long a time for speed workouts. Most paddles are up tempo and do not really have enough contrast.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 2 months ago #17740 by damien17
Replied by damien17 on topic Long slows....how and why?
Hi there paddling people. I have combined my 23 years paddling at a high level nationally and Internationally with a degree PE teaching with extensive study in exercise physiology and biomechanics of paddling technique.

Especially with the sport of Ocean Racing you need to apply your training to a desired specific goal. You need to utilize all facets of training - progressive overload, specificity, variety, reverability and X training. training both the aerobic and anaerobic energy systems

I find what most people (male paddlers in particular) sacrifice their technique in training to paddle fast during the sessison. This may have something to do with the male ego wanting to beat the person next to them. Paddlers need to remember that by not concentrating on technique for the majority of their sessions your stroke become inefficient and average boat speeds drop. (and the person who trains correctly will usually beat you)

Of course their is a need to train for physiological adaptations to occur but do not sacrifice technique. I find that my athletes I train have a greater increases VO2 from paddling at the lowest aerobic threshold, but maintaining technique providing better results overall than those athletes who train flat out most of the time.

The paddlers who train flat out all the time rarely allow themselves to find a race pace.

If there a individuals who want specifics of training programs or technque feel free to drop me an email on This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Boof Head, Kayaker Greg, PaddleFaster

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 2 months ago #17787 by zachhandler
I think the question of long and slow is irrelevant for most people who are balancing work, family, life, etc. For those who have time to spare it is a nice addition. But if your hours in the boat are limited, then stick to high intensity work with a focus on interval sessions. My 2 cents.

Current Skis: Kai Wa’a Vega, Nelo 550L g2, Epic V12 g2, Carbonology Feather, Think Jet, Knysna Sonic X

Former Skis: Epic V12 g2, Epic V12 g1, Epic v10 double, Fenn Elite S, Custom Kayaks Synergy

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Latest Forum Topics

Repair Advice (1 Posts)

3 hours 24 minutes ago
Protected by R Antispam