Long slows....how and why?

8 years 1 month ago - 8 years 1 month ago #17805 by Marieski
Replied by Marieski on topic Long slows....how and why?
It's all about specificity: If your "long slow" is the same speed as your short fast, you aren't paddling long enough or fast enough respectively. You aren't developing your distance or your speed.

Or alternatively you are damaging your body with the long fast efforts.

To illustrate from marathon training: You do interval training to increase your speed (anaerobic threshold being a bit moot for the marathon) and a tempo run for interest and pace variability. These are done at or over race pace. The ONLY time you do your long run at race pace is when you eventually do the race, because the damage is such that few top marathoners will do more than 4 marathons a year. Some will only do one.

So if you drop the speed you do your LSD at, you will find you can paddle further. And probably find you are less stuffed so can do better on your sprint days. And find life more interesting.

Past skis: Spirit PRS, EpicV10Sport Performance, Epic V10 Elite, Stellar SES Advantage. Current skis: Fenn Elite Spark, Fenn Swordfish vacuum. Custom Horizon, Epic V7

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8 years 1 month ago #17816 by gstamer
Replied by gstamer on topic Long slows....how and why?
I mix up my training with at least one high-intensity interval session a week and also a long slow paddle. I alternate hard and easy days, otherwise I invariably get injured.

I attended an interesting lecture featuring Sally Edwards, when her latest running book, "Be a Better Runner", came out. She contends that one of the most striking differences between "elites" and "weekend warriors" is that elites often go MUCH harder when they go hard, and go MUCH slower when they go slow as compared to non-elites. They get the benefits of long distance training, plus are recovered enough that they can go for high-intensity on their hard days.

She also contends that non-elites tend to frequently get stuck in what she calls the "black hole". The following is from her book;

The Black Hole is running at an effort that feels a little hard but not at a real hard training intensity. ... It's that in-between, can't-really-talk-too-well place where you are are not training at a high enough intensity to improve VO2 max but not long enough to really build endurance, and certainly not easy enough to recover

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8 years 1 month ago #17817 by Newbflat
Replied by Newbflat on topic Long slows....how and why?
Ok then... I will now paddle two long slows a week. Something like 15mi/ 24k and working up to 20mi+ /32k+ over a few weeks. I will keep my heart rate in zone 2. I will also add two days of intervals. One high intensity somthing like 1-2 min 100% intervals. The other day longer 8-15 min threshold intervals.... Maybe switching to ladders for vereation. Not sure what to do with the 5th day. I could make it wendsdays and go to the local TT, but its only 3.6 mi/ 5.7k. I really enjoy paddling my 10k timed route even if I do it too much. I guess i could do the TT twice. Any ideas what would be a complementary 5th day? Any thoughts on this basic routine?

Bill

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)

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8 years 1 month ago - 8 years 1 month ago #17818 by Kayaker Greg
Yes, 1-2mins will not be sustainable at 100%, 100% should be saved for pure sprints, 10-15 double strokes at 100% effort, think of sprinting for the line at the end of a race, this will help your power onto a wave or to close a short gap between you and a another competitor. These can be done all year around as recovery is quick and your body quickly looses the anerobic power these provide, 1 time a week off season for maintenance, twice a week in season.

1-2 mins is an interval and more like 90% effort which should be done sparingly at a specific time of year and once a week will be enough but only during your final prep before in season. Even do 1-4 mins. Racing is hard and the intervals prepare you for it, then the racing takes over. They are very hard on you and if you do them too often you could suffer burnout and you will not improve doing them all the time anyway, do them, adapt and recover. These can be done either with resistance for power or speed for cadence, depends on what you feel needs the work if lacking in one area or the other. Enough resistance is provided by paddling into current or wind, speed is done downwind or down current.

Longer 8-15 min threshold intervals can be done below 90% and could be done pre season and in season. Races and time trials also can replace this. 80%-90%

With your LSD 2 hours regular is quite good enough unless you are racing longer than that, but if you do 2 hours and feel good and want to, by all means paddle longer, however I never force myself to paddle longer unless building for a specific event. Because I enjoy paddling I tend to paddle longer in the weekends but during the week when time is short I limit it to 2 hours. If the weather is bad 2 hours in the weekends, if its good perhaps longer.

So one day sprints
One day intervals
One day AT work (or race)
Two days endurance, that's your four to five days remembering intervals at 90% should not be done all year around. Replace the intervals with another sprint workout when in season. Also in season endurance can be cut to once a week and two days AT work (or race). Depends on how hard your racing and your recovery. Every workout is different and progressive in intensity and duration, then rest and recover. Recovery is when you adapt and improve, most important.

So you can see its not the same all year around.

Anyway that's the principles I follow, others have many differing ideas.
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8 years 1 month ago #17819 by Fath2o
Replied by Fath2o on topic Long slows....how and why?
I don't know, think I may have done a little too much LSD back in the seventies. Brain seems a little fried now.
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8 years 1 month ago #17832 by Newbflat
Replied by Newbflat on topic Long slows....how and why?
I don't quite understand the threshold interval. Why go out and paddle intervals at 85-90% for 10 or 15 min, rest and do it again for say an hour and a half with combined on time being say and hour. Why not just go out and park myself in the same range for and hour? Is there an advantage to doing this?

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)

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8 years 1 month ago - 8 years 1 month ago #17833 by Kayaker Greg
Training to increase your anerobic threshold (AT) doesn't need to be at your AT, 10% below will increase your AT, so say your AT is about 175bpm (using my figures yours maybe different) I set my AT training zone at 160-170bpm. Long intervals or time trials can be done at this level slightly higher to get close to your AT without pushing past and putting yourself into oxygen debt and loading up with lactic acid AT. Your AT does move around a bit, if I'm untrained its closer to 165bpm, as I get fitter it moves up to the 175bpm and with training I have very good lactic tolerance to the point I hardly feel it.

With the 1-4 minute intensive interval your aim is to reach at least your AT (where your muscles start to feel the lactic acid) and even to push beyond that level, you train your body to deal with the lactic acid, I aim for intervals at 173-177bpm. Much beyond that and the effort will tend to drop off over time and you will not realise the benefit. You want to train your body to cope with the lactic acid it produces.

Your 10 or 15min interval is more likely to be at AT levels, a lower level than the pure 1-4 min interval and can be done as extended intervals as you say or in a one hour non stop level as per a race or tine trial. Breaking them into shorter periods is mentally less demanding and you also get a residual benefit during your rest periods with the on again off again nature of breaking them down. The heart rate is elevated during the rest periods for some time and your body learns to dispose of some of the waste metabolic effects of exercising, recover and go again.

Most of my AT or longer extended intervals are done in the 80-85% range, but the range does vary a little higher at times especially as you get fitter, and in a race you do go beyond this anywhere from 85% to max depending on whats happening in the race. But when you do go beyond your AT then your body has learnt to cope with it from the training you have done and you also learn what it feels like and how long you can push it at what level.

The trick is to learn from your racing and training and try to set a pace that you can sustain for the length of your race, this comes with experience and knowing your training and racing history. I like to finish strong in the last few kms rather than just hanging in there if I can and being totally wasted over the last kms. However I expect to be fully done at the end of the race, otherwise I adjust my strategy/levels for the next race.

Disclaimer: I'm no paddle coach, I was asking similar questions about paddle training a couple of years ago and got little if any response or answers. RAB had a bit to contribute, but like me he comes from a cycling background.
I had little choice but to base my paddle training on well known cycle training programs that had worked for me in the past with the same principles and training zones. I was a good cyclist but with paddling I'm just a weekend warrior, no elite paddler. I figure if others have better ideas to help you, there is nothing stopping them from adding their input, I would be interested as well as I'm always looking for a better way. I think what I have outlined just covers the basics and is well rounded for the average paddler like myself. I know people that have paid for programs which were basically intervals day after day and they could not continue for any length of time training this way. Elite athletes may be able too.

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