Chalupsky´s paddling technique

9 months 1 week ago #30955 by feeny
I did in and outs last night in about 25 knots of on-shore. Before I started I very deliberately pushed my paddle into the wind (on land) just trying to feel the difference on my paddle grip going right into it vs feathered and cutting through it a bit. Yes, I could notice it, but I wouldn't have called it particularly noticeable.

The difference whilst paddling was just as noticeable. It might be impacting my speed going into the wind, but I didn't notice and most importantly I feel as secure holding my paddle [the wind doesn't come close to upsetting things] at 0 as on 60 feather.

I'm not wedded to 0, something to try, so far I am not noticing too much downside... except...

What is noticeable is that my technique is yet to properly absorb the new angle, particularly working the catch - but there I am definitely noticing a gradual improvement - well, more accurately, a return to what was.

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9 months 1 week ago #30956 by robin.mousley
Too funny: I found this thread on the UKRGB website - there are a lot of very similar points made (complete with the same irritation being expressed between contributors, LOL).

www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45005

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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9 months 1 week ago #30958 by davgdavg

Impala wrote: Davdavg, I suggest you cool down a bit.

You say the emperor has no clothes. How brave of you to point that out! Your problem is that you see an emperor, and no one else.


I suggest you re-read my post. There is nothing heated, insulting, or anything else.

Second, I have no idea what you are trying to say about seeing an emperor; that doesn't even make any sense.

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9 months 1 week ago #30959 by Impala
"There is nothing heated, insulting, or anything else."

Oh really? Well, then ...

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9 months 4 days ago #31010 by Schravesande
For the most part I agree with Davdavg so will not go into the discussion on the pros and cons. However here is my experience with the use of feathered paddles:

1. When I started in surfskis in about 1958 in South Africa only 0 feather was used. When we heard that the canoeists were starting to use 90 feather, we tried them. One by one everyone converted to 90. No one ever went back to 0.

2. When I got into canoeing in about 1970 everyone used 90.

3. I made paddles at the time and supplied most of South Africa. I was only asked for one 0 paddle in many years. Most asked for 90 and a few 75. Mostly very good paddlers.

4. Still using 0 paddles I remember once being blown flat on my back when we turned into the wind. This never happened with 90 paddles.

5. Most of this was with what we now call flat paddles but when we changed to wings things did not change except that lower angles became more popular. I now use 75 degrees.

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9 months 3 days ago - 9 months 3 days ago #31016 by robin.mousley
I thought I'd interview Oscar, Ivan Lawler and a few others and get their opinions on this. Along the way I googled zero feather paddling and to my surprise found one of surfski.info's old articles:

www.surfski.info/tips/story/1270/what-fe...on-wing-paddles.html

In it Greg Barton says there's no right or wrong answer, but that you should find what's comfortable for you - and he discusses some of the pros and cons of zero v some paddle angle.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...
The following user(s) said Thank You: Wavehugger

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9 months 3 days ago #31017 by Cryder

Impala wrote: Look here for low elbows:



Michael Dobler at 2016 Ostseecup, at 7:20. He's among the top three in Germany.

Very efficient, relaxed and safe way of downwind paddling.

Edit: Uhm, maybe he just had heavy arms ... ??? :)


His catch is noticeably short (well behind the foot brace, instead of in front of it).

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9 months 3 days ago #31018 by Hiro
I've been paddling for years with a 60° feather angle. Never tought about it much, that was what I had on my first paddle (a fixed lenght FennIV).
I later bought some Epic mid-wings (adjustable ones), and had always used them with the same 60° angle (or I don't remember if I've been experimenting).
After reading this thread, I tried to set my blades to 45° then down to 30° each time for 2 hours long paddles. Didn't need any time to get used to the new feather angle. Didn't felt something different (less strain or something) on my wrist. Second paddle was very windy. Didn't find that having 30° angle made the boat feel tippier.

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9 months 2 days ago #31019 by robin.mousley
I got some input from Oscar, Greg Barton and Boyan Zlatarev:

www.surfski.info/tips/story/1647/to-feat...-not-to-feather.html

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...
The following user(s) said Thank You: Wavehugger

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9 months 2 days ago #31020 by robin.mousley
On the other hand, why bother with paddles at all?

imgur.com/gallery/IQZvnBP

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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9 months 2 days ago #31021 by kwolfe
But Rob, their elbows are still pretty tucked and hands are below eye level! Good leg drive example though.

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9 months 2 days ago #31022 by Davidw
I'd like to add/ask something.
I find it quite difficult on the non-control side to sufficiently rotate your paddle back so that it does not scoop water.
Most paddlers scoop more water on the non-control side in my experience of riding side slip. Certainly I do.
I would assume that excessive scooping is not desirable as it would indicate that you are somewhat pulling the boat down into the water?
With less feather is this scooping not reduced giving the paddle a cleaner exit from the water?

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9 months 2 days ago - 1 month 1 week ago #31025 by Henning DK
Greg Barton comes closest to mention an issue, that I think have been overlooked in the debate about feather angles: If your aim is to avoid bending of your wrists, 0° is not the answer!

It's a matter of geometry. A feather angle of 0° means holding the paddle with both hands at the same angle on the paddle shaft. This works only without bending one or both wrists when the paddle is held in parallel to an axis connecting your shoulders. It's very hard to paddle this way!

As soon as you lower one end of the paddle (to get it into the water), you introduce a difference to the angle between your arms and the paddle, and you need to either change the grip of one hand, or bend the wrist. A wing paddle in particular works best if the paddle is not too close to horizontal, since it will otherwise move up and out of the water. If you prefer to have a bent upper arm, this will add to the feather angle you need to avoid wrist issues.

A low paddling style, with leg drive and rotation will minimize the optimal feather angle, but it will not become zero.

This does not mean 0° is wrong - you just should do it for the right reason! I think getting rid of using one hand as a control hand and distributing control equally between both hands is a very good reason. You always know how you are holding you paddle this way, and kayaking becomes fully symmetrical.

I would love to do it myself, but it doesn't feel natural to me, after more than 40 years with 60° or higher. I have recently gone to 45°-50° but I don't expect to go further using one control hand.

(update:) On the other hand (!), I do experiment with 0° and changing control hand halfway between right and lefthand strokes, so you move both hands and the lower hand is always in control during a forward stroke (maybe the upper hand when going from forward stroke to bracing in same side). It's interesting so far...

Adjustable paddles are wonderful!

Henning
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9 months 2 days ago #31031 by feeny
I think at 0 that each hand is actually a bit of a control hand.

I'll investigate a bit further, but from my armchair position right now I think that I may actually be using my bottom hand as the control hand when I spear the catch.

Then, I repeat on the other side.

It's a much smaller movement than a single control hand does at 60 feather though. And, it's balanced on each side.

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9 months 1 day ago #31037 by Jef58
I think feeny is correct. I use around a 15 degree feather, actually a little above that I ended up marking. I tried 0 but the 15 feels more natural. I never used anything higher than 30 so this wasn't a big change. I came to my current setting by loosening the clamp just enough to to rotate through a stroke and found my natural twist.

I notice that I do what feeny said, use both hands as control hands with very slight natural movements. I also find the paddle stroke to be a very hard thing to do consistently without constant attention to it. My cycling is more like breathing and I don't think about it, paddling, not so much...

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1 month 3 weeks ago #32953 by GSPT
One of the most interesting topics around. As background, I have been involved in surf life saving for 50 years and have finished top 10 in South Africa three times. I switched to a zero feather about a year ago after watching Oscar's video. Took me about three weeks to adjust (must be a fast learner). Much more comfortable yet no discernible difference in speed. I also paddle with a low action, due to three shoulder operations (from swimming). I can't see that a feather makes any difference to efficiency and I'm not sure of how/why it came about. I recall when I first started paddling we used square blades with zero angle. At then end of the day, it's what you're comfortable with. I now teach zero feather to newcomers. PS: I once paddle double ski with Oscar's dad, Paul, in a sprint race in Durban. He's an "animal" and whacked a few guys going around the cans. Still paddling at 80-plus.

Greg Smith
Level 2 PT and surf coach
Paddling Technician
S.Africa marathon 79, 81, 83

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1 month 3 weeks ago #32961 by tve
Replied by tve on topic Chalupsky´s paddling technique
If you ask Sean Rice, he'll tell you that a feather angle around 60 degrees essentially forces you into a more dynamic posture: upright torso, right angles at upper shoulder and elbow, strong rotation with paddle entry far forward. It's not everyone's paddling style, but it's clear that it works for him. I tried it and while 0 degrees is more comfortable and I totally see Oscar's points, I do find that a feather angle gives me a better posture and paddling technique overall. I had to start at 30 and eventually am settling at 45 degrees. Overall what I thought was most interesting is that his argument is about something completely different than I had heard before. So in the end it really comes down to which aspect of the stroke you value the most.

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1 month 3 weeks ago - 1 month 3 weeks ago #32982 by nell
I agree with Henning DK. If you want to keep your wrists straight, then you have to feather, or you're forced to slip both hand grips - but then maybe that's not an issue...?.

This article linked below is something that I read years ago. I think he explains it in pictures and words pretty well:
www.simondawson.com/artkcr1.htm

In short, he says that if you want to have one control hand, meaning one hand that stays in place on the paddle shaft, then you have to have a non-zero feather angle, and with the given average height of our shoulders off the water and the average paddle length, 30-70 seems to be about where you'd have to be. The angle will vary between different types of boats and paddle length.

EBorgnes

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1 month 3 weeks ago - 1 month 2 weeks ago #32985 by Henning DK
What I would like to see are pictures taken from the end of the paddle, which is where you see the real angle between your wrists, which would be half of the feather angle.
This would also help me understand how 0 degree feather works for those who use it. Looked through some drone recordings, but didn't find anything useful.

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1 month 2 weeks ago - 1 month 2 weeks ago #33000 by SpaceSputnik
I am a newbie and basically started with that Oscar's video. But then I tried feathering just as an experiment and things became confusing.

First, in the stiff headwind I find that feather does help in that I don't have to wrestle with a paddle that wants to fly away from me. And I do feel the extra pressure on the top blade when flat.
Second, it may be an illusion but I feel more efficient. I think it makes me more deliberate in the catch.

As of now I am equally comfortable with flat and feathered, usually defaulting to flat. But it seems to be a more complex question than what Oscar makes it sound.

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