hip pinch

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11 years 4 months ago - 11 years 4 months ago #6320 by aaronrgold
hip pinch was created by aaronrgold
What is hip pinch? I am in a kayak with my own foam block seat and foot rest: feet together, knees up a little to get leg pump/hip rotation. this works well. No foot straps. They are coming. when I first built the seat I experienced tightness/tendency to cramp where top outside "corner" of thigh runs into hip and becomes torso. I realized seat was to small everywhere so carved it out bigger. this worked and I have been pretty comfy for 3 or 4 months. Just last night just the right hip got tight in the above mentioned location and it felt like the seat was slightly higher on the right. If it is it is a very small amount. I fab for a living and used calipers to check it. usually the seat feels right. Have read one reference to "hip pinch" in one of your articles (Mousley ?) but I do not know if the bucket was to narrow, and actually pinching his hips from the sides, or if in fact, like me, somthing in my position(I seen to have enough room) or stroke caused this. I paddle 3 times a week for 3 hours a trip.

Thank you
Aaron( soon to be in a ski although I love my boat) Gold
Last edit: 11 years 4 months ago by aaronrgold.

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11 years 4 months ago #6327 by nell
Replied by nell on topic Re: hip pinch
I think most of us define hip pinch as what you get from sitting in a too-narrow seat bucket that tapers in towards the bottom. When we sit, we'd like most of the pressure to be on the ischial tuberosities and the remainder spread equally over the other soft tissues, i.e. glutes. When the seat bottom has a continual curve many paddlers get too much pressure from the seat bucket side-to-bottom transition directly on the greater trochanter of the hip which gives us a bursitis and capsulitis and causes pain. The problem is usually from a bucket that has a continually rounded seat bottom as opposed to a seat bucket that has somewhat vertical sides and flatter bottom. Erik

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11 years 4 months ago #6334 by aaronrgold
Replied by aaronrgold on topic Re: hip pinch
Thank you Erik
The moment I read your answer-the rounded transition from seat side to seat bottom-making this radius smaller which will make the seat bottom flatter for more of its width-the light bulb turned on. I think that is exactly the problem. Will carve a little foam and let you know. I have learned a substantial amount by building my own seat/foot rest and I feel like when I go to buy a ski I will be able to choose one that really does fit. Tremendous. Thank you.

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11 years 4 months ago #6358 by [email protected]
Replied by [email protected] on topic Re: hip pinch
Erik helped me a lot to understand the injury (he is a doc) and Jamii Hamlin helped to fix the problem by manufacturing a seat that attaches to the bucket with velcro and effectively flattens the seating area. His design is apparently similar to a k1 seat and helped me a heck of a lot.

S.S.

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10 years 8 months ago #8114 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re: hip pinch
I thought I'd resurrect this thread as we have had some discussion about hip and buckets on the Vajda Orca thread. Quotes repeated below. In order of posting.

wobblypaddler wrote: I really enjoy paddling the boat, I was having "tight hip" issues which completely disappeared with the Orca.


AR_convert wrote: Interesting to hear you say that, that is why I was interested in trying this ski. I am suffering from Chronic ITB issues that seem to stem from hip/glute tightness. I have had all manner of treatment without success and in desperation more than anything resorted to padding up the seat up my ski to lift my butt out of the tightish bottom of the bucket. It's too soon to know if this may have been the cause but if it was it wasn't obvious over the 8 months I've been paddling my new ski.

Boef wrote: Bingo on this one. Have exactly the same problem from a deeper bucket. Hip pinch appears almost uncurable. I've been to a doc, chiropractor (injections to bursa didnt help), physios, sports therapists. gonna give the tennis ball a go. Its absolutely due to posture and the seat - I had a seat made up by Jamii in Cape Town - that resembles a k1 seat - and that made the discomfort bearable.

To put it differently I've never heard of a person paddling a flat xt bucket complaining of hip pinch. Seems the Orca may be different bucket.

thanks all for the responses.

Kayaker Greg wrote: Not sure if ITB is the same as sore hip flexors? Thats the issue I got paddling my Epic V10L, changing to a Stellar SES solved the problem as the hump was a lot lower.


I had the V10L for about 9 months and didn't have any issues with it, which highlights that it is nigh on impossible to make a perfect bucket, one persons comfortable bucket is anothers uncomfortable, I never noticed the hump in the V10L but again I am 6ft 3in tall too with long legs.

Always looking for the next boat :)

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10 years 8 months ago #8115 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re: hip pinch
How the hell did you fit in a V10l?
I'm the same height, but no way I can get into one.
A V12 is maxed out for me.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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10 years 8 months ago #8118 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re: hip pinch

Rightarmbad wrote: How the hell did you fit in a V10l?
I'm the same height, but no way I can get into one.
A V12 is maxed out for me.


Just!!!! With the footplate all the way fwd and the lugs not even in the holes to go that bit further fwd. Actually I found a bit more space in the V12, you must have slightly longer legs.

Always looking for the next boat :)

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10 years 8 months ago #8119 by [email protected]
Replied by [email protected] on topic Re: hip pinch
v 12 has a fantastic bucket as well - but I would like a longer leg set-up. I read someone modified the footplate to get a longer set-up but cant find it now -

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10 years 8 months ago #8120 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re: hip pinch
I would also rate the V12 as the most comfortable bucket I have sat in.
You may want the cut off shorty plate for big boys. But it only gives you a small gain.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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10 years 8 months ago #8122 by [email protected]
Replied by [email protected] on topic Re: hip pinch
Yes, thats it. What is the 'cut off shorty plate'?

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10 years 8 months ago #8131 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re: hip pinch

AR_convert wrote:

fredrik wrote: B) 2 typos in the one-liner.....

My solution to avoid but pain is to cut/fit a rectangular shaped minicell piece in the middle of the seat. I use standard carpet tape to fix it as it is easy to remove.

My approx size 6,5 x 8 x 1,5 cm (cut the top edges at an 30-45 degree angle to avoid rubbing. Fitted right you will not feel it.


A photo or two would be great...and post them in the "Hip Pinch Thread! Cheers.


Always looking for the next boat :)

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10 years 8 months ago #8136 by yankee
Replied by yankee on topic Re: hip pinch
trying to stay on topic...

I've recently been having an extended demo of a boat very VERY similar to AR's ;)

I absolutely love it in every way, as I'm a lightweight paddler needing a low volume ski, but I noticed the high hump (deep seat). This was limiting my rotation. THEN I noticed the tight hip, then the pain on the outside of my knee... :(
Went to the Physiotherapist, and BANG: ITB tightness. I wouldn't wish this pain on my worst enemy. I can't cycle, run, anything now!
SO, I don't know if this is all related (as there are so many other variables in my life), but a bit odd that paddlers can get this...
hhhmmmm...
I'll keep reading this with interest.

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10 years 8 months ago - 10 years 8 months ago #8146 by fredrik
Replied by fredrik on topic Re: hip pinch
Here are the pictures of the butt pads.









When I came home I measured this pad in my Elite SL to be 11 x 7,5 x 1,0 cm and 12 x 7,5 x 1,5 cm in the Evo

If you want to give it a try, I suggest you test ride it first with tape before fixing it with carpet tape.
Last edit: 10 years 8 months ago by fredrik.

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10 years 8 months ago #8148 by Boef
Replied by Boef on topic Re: hip pinch
Can you give me more details on this "shorty plate". Epic US has a 'tall boy' but it fits the v10 not the v12. Is this a home job, if so what, how, pics please!

Appreciate all the input!

(and good luck to the Aussies on Sunday - they're gonna need it)

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10 years 8 months ago - 10 years 8 months ago #8150 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re: hip pinch

fredrik wrote: Here are the pictures of the butt pads.


When I came home I measured this pad in my Elite SL to be 11 x 7,5 x 1,0 cm and 12 x 7,5 x 1,5 cm in the Evo

If you want to give it a try, I suggest you test ride it first with tape before fixing it with carpet tape.


This is a great idea, sort of like going for a racing type bike seat rather than a tractor seat which the current retailed seat pads I see are, you might be onto something here!

It's (almost) like changing the seat on you bike rather than changing the whole bike just because of the seat. I love my ski and will do everything to make it work, don't want to change ski's only to find even if it does do everything else as well as my current ski that it gives me the same hip issues 9 months down the track, then I'm back to square one.

You've given me an idea, sit on my bike seat and get the missus to identify when I sit up where the indents were, then form the foam according to that shape.

Does it hinder you remounting (ie, side of butt gets caught on it , or do remount with a leg over instead of sidesaddle remount.

I guess another way of doing it might be to put that rectangle piece in first then put the large butt pad in over the top, so it's raised around the sit bones but still able to be moved over when remounting .

When I finish Uni in a few weeks I might start tinkering.

Always looking for the next boat :)
Last edit: 10 years 8 months ago by AR_convert.

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10 years 8 months ago #8152 by Hiro
Replied by Hiro on topic Re: hip pinch
sit in some sand... you'll get a mold of your bum.

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10 years 8 months ago #8153 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re: hip pinch

Hiro wrote: sit in some sand... you'll get a mold of your bum.


True, but I'm more interested in the sit bone "pressure points". Maybe if I actually start with a bike seat shape piece of foam then trim as desired.

Always looking for the next boat :)

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10 years 8 months ago - 10 years 8 months ago #8158 by fredrik
Replied by fredrik on topic Re: hip pinch
My thinking was to make it narrower than a bike seat, because a larger seat would just provide a softer seat. By mistake I made it too wide in the start (The butt bones contacted the pad) and the result was that the ski became more unstable because you now only balance on a narrow seat.

I found the distance between the "butt bones by sitting on a regular paper sheet on a office chair (not hard, not too soft). If you lean forward and press down, the two pressure points will show pretty clearly. Women will therefore need a slightly wider pad due to female anatomy.

7,5 cm works for me, with a reasonably “rounded shape” (as round as possible with a Stanley blade). The hard part was to find the exact midpoint of the seat (-/+ 2-3 mm). If it is fix more off center one of the butt bones will hit the pad and the ski will be pressed down on one side - no good.

I have put the back of the pad just forward of the tail bone (this point is found by trial and error – use duct tape and a marker pen)when paddling. The benefit is twofold. You can't feel the pad and it is a telltale signal if you lean your body backward when you paddle.

My experience is that the shorter the better, but if it too short the effect of the pad is gone Depending on ski I landed on about 11 cm

I used Minicell foam which is dense enough and durable.

Be patient if you want to try it out. Small changes make all the difference , I made 4-5 evolutionary models over 4-5 weeks before I ended at a solution I was happy with.

I don’t feel the pad is in the way when remounting, as I normally use a straddle remount. If you side remount you may feel the need to make a little jump in the seat when you are all in with your feet, if your paddling shorts/long john fabric catches/stretches on the pad. After 50 yards of paddling it is all OK anyway.

The end result is that you don’t change the fit of the seat, it just is more comfortable and the ski is maybe a little more stable. Another benefit in the Evo seat, which feels wide for me, is that the pad stops me "sliding" around in the bucket. So there is no need for hip pads or side padding which could reduce the hip/twist movement

Well that was a long story for a small thing
Last edit: 10 years 8 months ago by fredrik.

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10 years 8 months ago #8159 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re: hip pinch
You've thrown me a bit now Fredrik, so are your sit bones lifted off the bottom of the seat?

Always looking for the next boat :)

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10 years 8 months ago - 10 years 8 months ago #8160 by fredrik
Replied by fredrik on topic Re: hip pinch
No, just lifted enough to take the point pressure off the bones, and spread the weight over a larger area between the bones.

If you sit on your hand/fingers you can feel the volume you fill with the pad.
:whistle: :woohoo:
Last edit: 10 years 8 months ago by fredrik.

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