Ski vs K1

6 years 4 months ago #19174 by lckcpaddler2
Ski vs K1 was created by lckcpaddler2
Over a 10k, what do you think is faster with an elite paddler? An ICF K1 or V14?

I have recently been paddling the v14 and I think it is the most comfortable ski I have ever been in. My background is in K1ing and even though I am more comfortable in a K1, I felt like I could potentially paddle a 10k faster in the ski since it is lighter and longer.

Any thoughts?

Morgan House

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6 years 4 months ago #19175 by Fuyang Guy
Replied by Fuyang Guy on topic Ski vs K1
There was a debate a while ago, asking the same question.
My understanding is (and it is that of many others) that it depends on the paddler size/weight.
For smaller paddlers <75kg a K1 will be faster, for bigger guys, the ski will be quicker.

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6 years 4 months ago #19176 by Jmuzz
Replied by Jmuzz on topic Ski vs K1
The weight is sort of open to debate, since an elite K1 weighs less but has weights added to make the 12kg spec when competing in an ICF-K1 sprint race.
If its racing a V14 over 10km then the 12kg spec wont apply and it can shed the weights, some down to 7kg.

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6 years 4 months ago #19177 by lckcpaddler2
Replied by lckcpaddler2 on topic Ski vs K1
I guess I'm wondering is there a way to tell if one boat is faster than the other regardless of the paddler or does it ultimately come down to who is paddling the boat?

Morgan House

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6 years 4 months ago - 6 years 4 months ago #19183 by sAsLEX
Replied by sAsLEX on topic Ski vs K1

lckcpaddler2 wrote: I guess I'm wondering is there a way to tell if one boat is faster than the other regardless of the paddler or does it ultimately come down to who is paddling the boat?


These articles discuss length hull shape etc as to drag and hence speed for input

www.surfski.info/getting-started/tips-ot...addling-part-iv.html

www.surfski.info/getting-started/tips-ot...the-rough-stuff.html

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6 years 4 months ago #19184 by robin.mousley
Replied by robin.mousley on topic Ski vs K1
IMHO it's only a discussion if you're talking about flat water.

As soon as there's movement in the water, it would be the ski every time.

But assuming flat water, it would be interesting to get a couple of good paddlers and make them do 2km intervals, swapping boats after each interval...

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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6 years 4 months ago #19186 by nell
Replied by nell on topic Ski vs K1
Morgan, I think the answer to your question is just as you said - it comes down to who is paddling the boat, and more specifically, what their weight is and how much power they can produce during the 10k on flatwater.

Assuming a weaker paddler of average weight, and no balance issues, then the K1 should be faster because it has less surface drag -we'll assume they can't go fast enough to generate that much wave drag.

Assuming an intermediate to strong paddler: for the heavier paddler, the ski should be faster and for the lighter paddler, the K1 should be faster. I suspect, however, that there's a wide range in the middle where they'd be about the same speed in either boat and I'd hazard a guess that paddlers in the 150 to 180 lbs range would be in the middle group, i.e. equally fast in a race K1 vs. 21' elite ski.

Erik

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6 years 4 months ago #19189 by zachhandler
Replied by zachhandler on topic Ski vs K1
I think this topic has come up a few times on this forum. As you may recall, when the v12 was new, Greg Barton said it was the only boat he could paddle faster than an olympic K1. Obviously the v14 is going to be slightly quicker on the flat than the v12, so maybe that is enough to answer your question.

What struck me about Greg's comparison, however, is that in order to paddle a k1 as fast as a v12, one would have to be 100% free of any balance issues in a full-on stability level 1 k1. I don't think that many of us are in that category. I can manage in a stability level 1 K1, but it takes some focus and my power generation is therefore somewhat compromised. A v12 by comparison feels as stable as an aircraft carrier on the flat. Even in large chaotic rebound chop, a v12 feels more stable to me than a level 1 k1 on the flat.

So bottom line, i think that for anyone without an elite level competence in a k1, a ski will be faster, mostly because of balance issues.

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6 years 4 months ago - 6 years 4 months ago #19194 by Watto
Replied by Watto on topic Ski vs K1
About a year ago I went for a paddle in the river with a mate I had introduced to kayaks in the mid nineties and who subsequently went on to paddle for Australia.

These days G only paddles from time-to-time, married with kids, important position, many responsibilities etc. He brought along his not often used K1, me my Stellar SES. At the time both of us hadn't been paddling much.

After paddling for awhile we swapped boats and - HOLY SCHMIDT bloody hell #[email protected]&% exclamatory expletives.!!!

My 42.6 cm width SES on flat water/ bumpy water felt relative to his elite K1 like the Queen Elizabeth, like a very wide barge. Just sitting in his thing at riverbank was diarrhoea inducing. I felt like the rankest amateur, totally and completely incompetent. I've paddled K1's years ago and once in motion in a straight line on glassy water could sit them up, however his elite carbon boat (can't remember brand - Nelo maybe) was like trying to paddle a paddle. It was unbelievable - oh and yes I swam and swam.

Balance issue in that boat for me was huge, simply impossible without significant time in boat to even approach full consistent power. Before we swapped I was really putting out to keep with him, okay he is twenty years younger and undoubtedly a better paddler, however my slick SES and I did not find the going easy over maybe 5ks, even wash hanging. What G did mention after we had swapped boats - and this I imagine would be very telling over long distance in a K1 - was how much run the SES had. In the SES he remarked how much less effort he had to put in to keep the boat running.

Stability aside (that's a very big aside), a longer ski over say 10 k's would surely take less effort relative to the stumpier K1. Effort that could be put in to re-dressing whatever speed difference there may be between the boats.

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6 years 4 months ago #19196 by Hugh
Replied by Hugh on topic Ski vs K1
Morgan,
If you are really a LCKC paddler can't you just get some friends together and find out (and let us know)?
It should be a simple empirical answer, but those of us who can't paddle a K1 properly treat it more like the question of how many angels can fit on a pinhead (that includes me).
What struck me as odd about the Greg Barton comparison table (which I can't find now) was that it was theoretical, not based on actual tests. Does he not have time to paddle?

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6 years 4 months ago #19201 by Vector
Replied by Vector on topic Ski vs K1
Hey around the globe :)
Interesting question. I also think about what will be the fastes boat on flatwater .What i can say is that my Stellar Se gives good or better results on a 10 K flatwater course than my modern K1. But will be a Epic V14 faster?or what is the fastes boat in the moment? My wheigt is about 86 Kg.Here in Germany i haven`t had the chance to test a V14 ,so that I´m not sure to order a new boat. Any comments???
Thank you from Europe!! B)

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6 years 4 months ago #19203 by latman
Replied by latman on topic Ski vs K1
a) Weight means bugger all after the initial acceleration so I would regard any difference as worthless over such a long distance ,also the paddlers weight has to be included and that minimizes any difference on a % basis
b) K1s have the seat 6-8cm above the bottom of the hull and that gives a superior ergonomic paddling position IMO and it allows the strong abdominal muscles to be used for propulsion father than posture ,it also allows the waterline beam of a K1 to be narrower than a humans ass
c) the longer length of an ocean ski lets it "run" better with less tramping and if a K1 wasn't limited to 5.2 m it would be far superior IMO

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6 years 4 months ago #19205 by ElRicho
Replied by ElRicho on topic Ski vs K1
"K1s have the seat 6-8cm above the bottom of the hull and that gives a superior ergonomic paddling position IMO and it allows the strong abdominal muscles to be used for propulsion father than posture ,it also allows the waterline beam of a K1 to be narrower than a humans ass"

Absolutely. I consistently paddle my K1 30sec p/km faster than my ski in FLAT WATER. K1's are for flat, Ski's are the MTB's of the paddle world.

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