Stellar SEI speed versus V10 gen 2?

4 years 1 month ago #26722 by Bodsy
G'day Brains Trust, looking into moving to a hopefully faster but still pretty stable ski to race in both flatwater and a few ocean races and fun offshore paddles. I'm currently in a 2012 Epic V10 sport Club layup (model before current) which has been good for me. Have had quite a few paddles and a couple of 20 k flatwater races in V10 Gen 2 performance which was ok but I felt twitchy and wouldn't take it out to sea just yet.

I've had a look at Wesley's charts for SEI and others and read other posts but keen for anyone's opinions or experience with the SEI and whether its in the same ballpark speedwise as a current model V10 (Wesley rates it slightly quicker...) . I'd prob go with Advantage layup 14.5 kg for a bit of extra stability and durability in the ocean and hopefully not lose much speed compared to the excel at 11.5kg.

Been paddling for around 18 mths now and still working on paddling technique and fitness but really enjoying it all even though I'm Canberra based and winter's a challenge (new v10 bailer in the closed position was nice!). For point of reference my current flatwater speed for 10km is around 10.5 kph in the V10 sport and i'm 50, 95kgs and hopefully poundage is going down! Thanks and happy paddling all

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4 years 1 month ago #26725 by Aurelius

Bodsy wrote: G'day Brains Trust, looking into moving to a hopefully faster but still pretty stable ski to race in both flatwater and a few ocean races and fun offshore paddles. I'm currently in a 2012 Epic V10 sport Club layup (model before current) which has been good for me. Have had quite a few paddles and a couple of 20 k flatwater races in V10 Gen 2 performance which was ok but I felt twitchy and wouldn't take it out to sea just yet.

I've had a look at Wesley's charts for SEI and others and read other posts but keen for anyone's opinions or experience with the SEI and whether its in the same ballpark speedwise as a current model V10 (Wesley rates it slightly quicker...) . I'd prob go with Advantage layup 14.5 kg for a bit of extra stability and durability in the ocean and hopefully not lose much speed compared to the excel at 11.5kg.

Been paddling for around 18 mths now and still working on paddling technique and fitness but really enjoying it all even though I'm Canberra based and winter's a challenge (new v10 bailer in the closed position was nice!). For point of reference my current flatwater speed for 10km is around 10.5 kph in the V10 sport and i'm 50, 95kgs and hopefully poundage is going down! Thanks and happy paddling all


I currently own a Stellar SR, which I'm quite happy with, but I'm considering eventually upgrading to a faster ski. Before buying the SR, I also tested the SEI -- both on flat water in identical conditions. My impression was that the SEI was slightly tippier than the SR, but no faster. The SEL, which I have not tested, has a reputation for having a superb blend of speed and stability, so I'm thinking that when it comes time to upgrade, it may make more sense to leapfrog from the SR to the SEL, skipping the SEI. I have read two reviews from paddlers who purchased the SEL as their first ski, and after only three weeks, both felt perfectly comfortable paddling it in flat water.

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4 years 4 weeks ago #26728 by Flowmaster
I'm in the SEI for over a year now, coming from a V8 wich I still have for stormy days.
Compared the SEI with a V 10 sport (I believe older model) and I think the other paddler has more experience , I was ok in keeping up with him.
Downwind I was even faster but maybe I wanted to prove to much that Stellar is Stellar :)
And I'm in the advantage and he was ultra, but downwind that might be a disadvantage in this case.

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....\.....(.......(.......).....
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JUST LEAVE FOOTPRINTS
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4 years 4 weeks ago #26733 by ShaneS
Agreed, the SEI isn't much of an upgrade from the series 2 SR. I tested an Advantage SEI (I have an Excel SR) and felt really comfortable when I expected an incremental jump up. Later tested an Advantage SEL and it felt just the right amount of increased tippiness and a lot more speed. Only reason I didn't buy was the Stellar buckets are too wide and square-backed for me, so I went the Swordfish S instead for a snug fit and improved player comfort.

Fenn Swordfish S Carbon Hybrid - 2016
Fenn Elite S Carbon - 2016
Stellar SR Excel - 2015
Cobra Expedition - 2013
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4 years 4 weeks ago #26772 by Bodsy
Thanks everyone for your replies, tempting to go for something a bit quicker like the SEL but at this stage of my paddling and not having regular/easy access to the ocean to get used to a more tippy boat i'll prob stick with something with pretty good stability and the SEI sounds like a good balance. next task is to take one out for a paddle a few times and see how it goes versus the sport using GPS and heart rate. Would be good to see the latest Epic v10 sport on Wesley's chart with plenty of people saying it has good speed and good stability.

Sounds like the new SR is pretty close in speed to the SEI but unfortunately it doesn't seem to suit my butt too well.

Can anyone compare the speed of the SEI with the Carbonology Vault which also seems like a good intermediate boat? (will have to add that to the demo list too!) Thanks all, and enjoy your paddling

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4 years 4 weeks ago - 4 years 4 weeks ago #26774 by Aurelius

Bodsy wrote: Would be good to see the latest Epic v10 sport on Wesley's chart with plenty of people saying it has good speed and good stability.


I was reading through various reviews of the new V10 Sport, and this is the best one I found. Of particular interest is the reviewer's speed and stability comparisons between the V10 Sport and the V12 & V14. What it seems to boil down to is that in the V10 Sport, you get a lot more stability with very little loss in speed. I would love the chance to try one of these out myself, but alas, there is no stocking Epic dealer in my area.

Link to the review:
www.surfski.info/reviews/surfskis/story/...s-new-v10-v-v14.html
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4 years 3 weeks ago #26775 by photofr
You could perhaps save yourself tons of money this year. Here's what could help:
1. Motivate yourself to still paddle often
2. Work on technique
3. Hire an instructor for 2 or 3 sessions
4. Work on technique some more

I pretty much guarantee you that your speed increase will be more impressive with the above than any new ski money can buy. Don't get me wrong though: there's nothing like seeing your new ski for the first time, but perhaps you can place that feeling aside for another season to REALLY take advantage of the future new ski next year.

Ludovic
(Brittany, France)
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4 years 3 weeks ago #26776 by Newbflat
Pay attention to what Ludovic said. That's the best piece of advice here.

The idea that a V10 sport as nearly as fast as a v12 or V14 is ridicules. They are elite ski's that reward very strong paddlers with solid stability and technique. If that's not you, you won't see much reward if any moving to one. It's about the potential they are capable of in the right hands, it's not a given. There are diminishing returns as you go up the speed ladder. Ski's become much harder to paddle with diminishing returns (less speed) for time and energy invested.

Other thoughts....
Current generation Epic's have a different stability profile that Stellar ski's. In my experience Epic's have more initial stability and somewhat diminishing secondary. Stellar's tend to have less initial stability and increasing secondary. To me the V10 sport and the SR have similar stability (over all) but it's in different places. The sport with more initial and the SR with more secondary. What's better depends on what you like, everyone is different. To me I feel quit a bit more stable in the SR in really rough conditions.

If your 10k average is 10.5 kph, take what Ludovic says to heart. Your Sport can move a lot quicker than that and at that kind of power output your capable of (at the moment) you will see very little speed gain going to a faster ski. I mean no offense, that's right were I was after about a year and a half paddling. I went from an older SR to a V10 and saw my speed drop initially in anything other than dead flat water. A year later after some clinics and coaching, lots of time in the ski and lots of focus on technique and fitness had me at 11.2 kph over 10k. When I would switch to the SR i was at 11 kph and still faster in the SR in anything resembling rough water.

Your 50.. I'm 51 and its very apparent I will most likely never be my faster in rough water in my SEL than i was in my V10 sport or the new SR I had been demoing and thinking of getting. I'm totally capable of taking the SEL down to the Columbia River gorge and paddling it on any run most any day.... But am I Faster? Nope, and most likely will never be. My balance is just not that sharp anymore and as is mentioned here over and over and not headed enough.... Stability is everything!

After 4 years paddling it's really only now truly settling in. Even after hearing it over and over....Just getting a faster ski doesn't beat fitness, technique and stability.

On the other hand, if you want another ski go for it, and I should practice what I preach.

Bill

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)
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4 years 3 weeks ago #26777 by nell
That review you linked to was my comparison of the V10 gen2, (not the V10 Sport) to the V12 and the V14. I guesstimate that my marathon speed in the V10 Sport gen2 would have been about 0.1-0.2 mph below that of the V10 gen2 - with me paddling at my marathon race pace.

Elite skis are all so similar in speed that differences are hardly noticeable and it's really, really, difficult to measure the very slight differences even with stopwatches and gps's. Much of what is written and charted online regarding these skis is nothing more than "a feeling" of how fast the ski feels. Intermediate level skis have a bit more variation in width, and beginner skis have even more, so these classes will have a bit more noticeable differences in speed and stability. General rule is that it's usually it's a trade off and you either choose one or the other, i.e. more speed at the expense of stability or vice versa.

Plus, like I always say, I don't care so much if my ski is 1% slower as I'll just ride another's wash for 1% longer.

More important is that you feel like you're in a good and efficient paddling position, are comfortable without seat issues, and that the ski makes you feel confident on the water.

I completely agree with Ludovic's (photofr) comments, too.
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4 years 3 weeks ago #26778 by Aurelius
Thanks for the correction, nell. I wonder if you can explain what exactly qualifies as an "elite" ski. Would a Stellar SR fit that description?

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4 years 3 weeks ago #26779 by Newbflat
Elite = Uno max, V12-14, Fenn: everything above a Swordfish, SEL- SES, Huki S1-X, Nelo 560- 560 M... Etc.

Advanced = V10, SEI, Ion (maybe) Huki S1-XL (maybe) ... It's all subjective.


The SR is firmly in the intermediate category along with the V10 Sport, swordfish, S1-R, Evo II..... Etc.


Bill

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)

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4 years 3 weeks ago #26780 by nell
I haven't come across any hard and fast rules to stratify skis into the three general classes and it's probably not really possible to do - though if I had to do it, I'd use a ratio of waterline width and length (but waterline width is generally an unknown). Overall width doesn't work because skis flare above the waterline differently from ski to ski, but that's an "ok" starting point I would guess. For the Stellars, I would guess that the SE series are the "elite" skis and the SEI would be more or less a "sub-elite" ski, similar to the V10 gen2. SR looks to me to be comparable to a V10 Sport.

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4 years 3 weeks ago #26783 by Midlifecrisis
I previously had an SEI in the Advantage layup and I probably wouldn't call it a sub-elite ski (for me at least). It could have been that it was due to the heavy layup, but it always seemed like more of an intermediate ski to me.
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4 years 3 weeks ago #26784 by Aurelius

nell wrote: I haven't come across any hard and fast rules to stratify skis into the three general classes and it's probably not really possible to do - though if I had to do it, I'd use a ratio of waterline width and length (but waterline width is generally an unknown). Overall width doesn't work because skis flare above the waterline differently from ski to ski, but that's an "ok" starting point I would guess. For the Stellars, I would guess that the SE series are the "elite" skis and the SEI would be more or less a "sub-elite" ski, similar to the V10 gen2. SR looks to me to be comparable to a V10 Sport.


What I liked about your article was the hard numbers you presented when assessing the performance of each ski you tested. Unfortunately I misread it, thinking that one of the skis in your comparison was the V10 Sport, not the regular V10 (I didn't realize there were so many varieties). So what do you think a paddler of your skill level could manage as far as top speed in something like a V10 Sport?

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4 years 3 weeks ago #26785 by nell
Hard to know for top speed / max effort sprint speed because I only paddled a V10 Sport Gen2 for a short 5 minute period of time once. My guess is that my max speed might be 0.2 mph lower than in the V10 gen2, or roughly 9.4 mph on flat water - which is ok but not particularly fast.

Having said that, though, I don't want to emphasize the importance of a ski's top speed because I'm not sure that it matters much. I only considered it as a possible method of comparing similar length and shape skis when trying to parse out slight differences in total resistance between them - if that's even possible to do with a gps.

More important is the ski's speed at your 5k/10k/marathon pace if you're a racer-type. And like I said before, it's really, really difficult to measure these differences because they're so small when comparing skis that are of similar length and stability. The point of that article I wrote way back when was that while I could go faster in the V14 and in the V12, I chose to keep the V10 because I just felt better in it and the very slight difference in speeds that I was able to measure at both marathon pace and at max sprint speed weren't as important to me as my comfort and confidence in the ski. I also suspect that I was able to race as fast if not faster in the V10 compared with the other two. Don't get too hung up on opinions of what ski is faster than the others. Find the ski that you can paddle comfortably and that you feel confident in and go have fun.
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4 years 3 weeks ago #26787 by Newbflat
Take some time and look at the numbers Greg Barton has listed as speed differences between ski's. Even Greg can only squeeze. .07 kph out of the V14 over he V10 in a 10k.
And take a hard look at the intermediate paddlers time. They diminish after the V10 do to stability issues. While these numbers will differ for everyone, it's an interesting study reality vs. expectations.

Greg's 10k average in the V10 sport is 13.4 kph! Intermediate expectations 11.53

www.rivermiles.com/forum/Attachments/Epi...es_w-Greg_Barton.pdf

Easy number crunching here..
www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/spee...tance_time_calc.html

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)

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4 years 3 weeks ago #26788 by Aurelius

nell wrote: Hard to know for top speed / max effort sprint speed because I only paddled a V10 Sport Gen2 for a short 5 minute period of time once. My guess is that my max speed might be 0.2 mph lower than in the V10 gen2, or roughly 9.4 mph on flat water - which is ok but not particularly fast.


That certainly sounds very fast to me. I can just barely get my SR up to 8 mph on the lake with a tailwind!
How long did it take before you could manage those kinds of speeds?

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4 years 3 weeks ago #26789 by Aurelius

Newbflat wrote: Take some time and look at the numbers Greg Barton has listed as speed differences between ski's. Even Greg can only squeeze. .07 kph out of the V14 over he V10 in a 10k.
And take a hard look at the intermediate paddlers time. They diminish after the V10 do to stability issues. While these numbers will differ for everyone, it's an interesting study reality vs. expectations.

Greg's 10k average in the V10 sport is 13.4 kph! Intermediate expectations 11.53

www.rivermiles.com/forum/Attachments/Epi...es_w-Greg_Barton.pdf

Easy number crunching here..
www.machinehead-software.co.uk/bike/spee...tance_time_calc.html


That's very depressing. According to those numbers, I'm not even an "Intermediate Level Paddler" yet. :(

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4 years 3 weeks ago #26791 by wesley
The SEI 1G Excel is more comparable to the V10 Ultra in speed and is the fastest of the Evo 2, Swordfish, and SR in comparable layups. All these skis are fine skis so try to make the time to paddle them more than once to discern the differences. In downwind and sloppy conditions the SEI 1G shines. The V10 has more of an edge speed wise in the flats since less rocker and slightly narrower. Many paddlers have never tried the SEI excel so they speculate on how it compares to the V10 sport or V10.

The SEI bucket was Stellar 1st attempt 4 years ago on a more rounded and tapered bucket and footwell. So it is a large bucket better suited for larger paddlers if you are not going to pad it out. I have mine padded out significantly. Many paddlers that compare it directly to the V10 sport will come away feeling the V10sport is much more stable. It is. However, the SEI 1G is faster than the V10sport in all conditions. Many paddlers as mentioned prefer the SR 2G over the SEI 1G for these reasons. The Stellars skis have excellent glide!

There is more from Stellar coming out very shortly and are working on some other projects. I certainly will offer my opinion how the boat "feels" backed up with video, races, Gps data etc. So more then "feel". The SEL 2G is an excellent choice now paddled by many in various conditions for an advance paddler wanting more stability than offered by the other "Elite" class of skis.

Stellar is the major sponsor for the East Coast Surfski Championship(L2L) so I encourage the US paddlers to attend and try all the new skis from Stellar along with the Nelo's, Thinks, and Epics. I will be trying all of them out and so can you! Don't be shy about trying a Stellar. We have the most complete composite line of rec, sea, touring kayaks and surfskis in the world.

We are working on our new website with all the updated information on all our new boats. I apologize for the old website which we are not updating due to the new one coming on line some time in the future. Wesley Echols, SurfskiRacing.com #1 one in reviews, and Stellar Performance Director, USA.

Wesley Echols
SurfskiRacing.com
#1 in Surfski Reviews.
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4 years 3 weeks ago #26792 by photofr
I think the numbers listed by Barton are a bit inflated, at least from where I am standing.

Look around in France: you are unlikely to find 10 paddlers who will be able to paddle a V6 at 11.1 km/h over a 10k course. So, when you take the fastest paddlers of France and they do not amount to an "Intermediate level based on Barton", you can perhaps conclude that Barton's numbers aren't scientific (as expressed) and/or French paddlers aren't very fast :)

All jokes aside, those numbers do not add up. I am really close to becoming an Intermediate paddler on a V10L, yet so far from graduating the beginner's level on a V6 (okay, that wasn't a joke, but it was written to make you smile none the less)

Ludovic
(Brittany, France)

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