Which one, if any, is the most stable intermediate ski?

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5 years 7 months ago - 5 years 7 months ago #27652 by OSS
Hi Phil,
Interesting.
Some people compare the OSS2 with the V12 in speed.
Nevertheless it shows how different skis are for different people, different heights, weights, etc. I am 1.92m, 93kg and the only reason why I started OCEAN was that I wasn't happy with the 9 skis I owned before, various brands and models, some got mentioned in this threat.
It shows that it is absolutely necessary to test skis before makimg a buying decision...

New, innovative, different!
Last edit: 5 years 7 months ago by OSS. Reason: Spelling

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5 years 6 months ago #27700 by crallan

photofr wrote: Mind you: I am making reference to the old Swordfish (1st generation). Apparently, and I could be wrong, but I believe that the new SF is actually wider.


The old SF had two different bucket options, needle arse 39 cm & fat arse 41 cm. And the S sits in the middle 40 cm (Internal width on the widest point).
But that is internal width and i don't know if that difference translated to the outside...

Swordfish S Carbon
Swordfish glass vacuum

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5 years 6 months ago #27701 by photofr
So strange that in France, we weren't told about this difference. Perhaps it explains why the SF mark 1 didn't feel ultra wide.

Thanks for the info; goes to show that each country's reps should start communicating a little more with customers.

Ludovic
(Brittany, France)

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5 years 6 months ago #27702 by crallan
If it's any consolation we weren't told in Sweden either! I found out when I upgraded from the old glass SF to a new carbon S and realized that the new bucket was tighter (very appreciated!) the old, contrary to the information about the bucket being wider in the S. Happy days for me! :)

Swordfish S Carbon
Swordfish glass vacuum

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5 years 5 months ago #27747 by paddlepup
I have owned both the Evo 2 (elite) and Swordfish S (hybrid) - I am 186cm and 85kg and at the lower end of intermediate
I found the Swordy to be faster in flatwater and ocean and way more stable in all conditions. In really bad conditions the Swordfish is unbelievable - it rolls around a lot but if you trust it its almost impossible to fall off. The Swordfish is stable due to its seat depth - you are technically sitting below water level when underway and the stability is fantastic. However the seating position can cause your pelvis to roll back a tad and a seat pad helps stop any lower back pain, and if you arent great at remounts the Swordfish can be a bitch to get back in due to the very deep seat
I have also just sold my Zest and its both slower and more unstable than a Swordfish S.

Bill

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5 years 5 months ago #27748 by Canario
Thank you very much, Bill. At this moment I am in doubt between Think Evo II and Fenn Swordfish S. I have tried the Evo and was a nice experience. It's unstable for me, but not as the Zest. I was able to paddle it comfortably on flat water. When I tried it on choppy, I had some swims, but I considered an acceptable start , considering I'm now paddling Carbonology Sport Boost. The Evo is long, high volume and 47.5 cms wide. On the other hand, there is no Swordfish to try in Canary Islands, so it's difficul to make a bid for it. From the data, its shorter, less volume and 45cms wide. That's a big concern for me because I'm 1.86 tall but 96 Kgrs and with wide wide hips. I have to make my mind up, but probably will go for the Evo, even when Swordfish is probably more stable.
Thank you very much!

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5 years 5 months ago #27765 by Newbflat
I had an Epic V10 sport (g2) for two years and recently went on a new ski hunt. Demoed the Evo II in conditions numerous times and ended up with an Stellar SR. I'm faster it the SR in all conditions the the Sport or Evo II and it's more stable as well.
Check out my post on the SEI thread...

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)

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5 years 4 months ago #27931 by Canario
Would you agree if I say that from more to less stable the order would be: Think Evo- Epic V10 Sport- Carbonology Zest?
I have discarded all those under 47 cms wide for being too narrow for me.

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5 years 4 months ago #27937 by paddlepup
Canario - the order you have listed the skis in order of stability is correct.

HOWEVER the Swordfish S is more stable than all 3 boats you have mentioned - noticeably more stable. Depending on your size - the Evo2 is a tight fit, which is great if you like to feel super snug and dont mind not being able to move anything other than your feet. The Zest has the worst primary stability and rolls around non stop which can be a little intimidating in rough, cold water.

If you want to go fast but retain some stability my top picks are (from most to least stable):
Stellar SR gen2
Swordfish S
Stellar SEI
Evo2

Bill

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5 years 4 months ago #27938 by Canario
Thank you!
I can not get an Stellar here in Canary Islands. The Swordfish is an option, but there is no one here to try and being only 45 cms wide I'm afraid of being unable to get into it without pain as I am 1. 86 m tall and 95 Kgrs.

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5 years 4 months ago #27939 by Ranga
Swordfish S is no where near close to the Epic V10 Sport for stability. It is similar to the V10.

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5 years 4 months ago #27941 by robin.mousley

Ranga wrote: Swordfish S is no where near close to the Epic V10 Sport for stability. It is similar to the V10.


That's really interesting that you find that... I would respectfully disagree, and say the opposite - that the Swordfish S is closer to V10 Sport...!

One thing is true though - guys on Swordfish S smacked me last night when I was on my Evo II. It was "my" weather - 30kt wind plus rough water, 4 laps out and back, 10.5km in total and I did great going downwind. Going upwind, not so much: I felt that the boat was being stopped by the waves and in my mind (and probably only in my mind) the guys on Elite, Elite S and Swordfish S were just sliding easily over the waves and eating into my lead going upwind...!

For me, much depends on my comfort in the boat. I dislike very wide cockpits as in the older Epic boats; I prefer having my calves in contact with the boat.

But you've inspired me to have a go on a Swordfish S again! I'll report back vis a vis my Evo II.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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5 years 4 months ago - 5 years 4 months ago #27942 by Atlas
I find the Swordfish and the Swordfish S much more stable than the V10. I can only handle the V10 in fairly calm water whereas I am fairly comfortable in my Swordfish S in moderate downwind conditions. I still retreat to my trusty XT when it gets really hectic. The XT is a super stable boat. It's surprisingly fast in rough water too. I weigh 75kg. Heavier paddlers may well find the Swordfish and the V10 to be similar. It may have already been mentioned that the Swordfish S has a significantly wider bucket than the original Swordfish. I'm not impressed by it but then I'm probably a bit small for the boat.

Current boats
Epic V10L Ultra, Carbonology Sport Boost LV X, Fenn Bluefin, Nelo 510, Fenn XT double, Nelo 600, Expedition Kayaks Azure

Previous boats
Spirit PRS, Fenn Swordfish, Fenn XT, Fenn Swordfish S, Think Zen, Epic V10L Club, Epic V9 Ultra, Carbonology Sport Boost LV
Most with DK rudders
Last edit: 5 years 4 months ago by Atlas. Reason: More info.

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5 years 4 months ago #27943 by robin.mousley

Heavier paddlers may well find the Swordfish and the V10 to be similar.


Fair point. I weigh 80kg.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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5 years 4 months ago #27944 by Canario
So, I guess, for me and my 95 Kgrs, Evo II, Swordfish S and V10 Sport would be about the same in terms of stability, being the Evo the faster in calm conditions due to its 6.25 m, with the Swordfish S the best in waves with the V10 Sport in the middle of it. Agree?

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5 years 4 months ago #27945 by photofr
I think that the max width of a ski USED TO BE a pretty good gage for ski stability, but this seems to have changed. In this time and age, I would strongly advice to try the different skis.

Good examples of this is:
Nelo 560L : 45cm in max width measured, but feels more like a V12 (43cm) in terms of stability.
Nelo 520 : 51cm in max width measured, but feels more like a Fenn XT (48cm) in terms of stability.
The list goes on with Revo, etc...

Of course, to make matters worse, the Swordfish is said to be 45cm in max width (identical to the V10 from Epic) but these two skis couldn't possibly be more different.

I have a feeling that people who think that the Swordfish and the V10 provide the same stability with a heavier or lighter paddlers were simply looking at the specs. They really need to test both skis on the same bodies of water on the same day.

Ludovic
(Brittany, France)

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5 years 4 months ago #27946 by albert
Strangely I tested the Think Evo 2 and Carbonology Zest back to back and the Zest was much less twitchy for me. I am 108kg though...

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5 years 4 months ago - 5 years 4 months ago #27947 by Newbflat
Stability can be a strange thing. Some boats are hard to compare. For example, I had a V10 sport for two years and switched to a Stellar SR. In the process of demoing a number of skis in solid DW conditions. I spent time in Evo II, my sport and the Stellar SR. Much of this was done back to back in diferente skis with the same rudders on all skis and the rudders they came with. The SR and the Sport's stability profile are very different. The Sport has more initial and less secondary stability and the SR less initial and more secondary. At least for me at 86-88 kilos. I always found the Sport a touch unpredictable in the rough and even sketchy at times because of the relative lack of deep secondary. Just when I need it it's not there. While then SR has very deep and progressive secondery. I feel much more stable is in rough conditions in the SR. Yet in light chop or flat conditions the sports stong primery is dominant. So, it's hard for me to tell which ski is more stable... stable in what? In the rough, the SR, stable in the flats, the Sport. If you were scoring it on points they might come out the same, but they're very different. This goes for the Evo as well. The Evo II has a very loos first few degrees of heal and can feel twichy just sitting there or in light beem chop. More so than the SR which is loos without the twitch. But in a rough downwind the Evo Is more stable for me than the Sport as it has deeper and more progressive secondary. The SR is more stable than the Evo both in the flats and downwind but downwind I didn't notice the twitch and it's only the very deep secondery of the SR that is lacking. I didn't find it an issue and felt much more stable in rough conditions at least downwind in the Evo than the sport. In the flats I'm faster in my SR than I was in my Sport and the SR is a short 5.84 meters so length isn't everything. It's also 48cm wide so it's fat-ish. I'm not sure if I'm faster in the SR than the Evo in the flats or not as I only demoed it in a number of good downwinds. But I am faster in the SR downwind than ether Sport or the Evo. It was a close choice for me between the Evo and th SR. Both had things that worked innthere favor. . In the end the SR just picked up bumps easer for me and carried its speed better between. It did require a better rudder though. I consitter the standard 8' near usless in a downwind. Changing the rudder changed the ski from a lemon to my first choice.

FENN Bluefin S
FENN Swordfish S carbon hybrid
Epic V8 double gen 2
Lot and lots of DK rudders.


Had:
Stellar SEL excel (gen 2)
Stellar SR excel (gen2)
Stellar S18s g1 (excel)
Epic V10 Double (performance)
Stellar SR (gen 1)
V10 sport (gen 2)
V10 (Gen 2)
Beater SEL (gen 1)
Last edit: 5 years 4 months ago by Newbflat.

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5 years 4 months ago - 5 years 4 months ago #27950 by TaffyMick
I too have a 2gen SR and used to have a 2gen V10S. Totally agree with your critique between both boats Newbflat. In regards to the SR rudder... yes what a revelation and total change in paddling dynamics.

Interestingly a few weeks ago I was going to sell my SR (Excel layup) and upgrade to a new SEI in Advantage. Before I gave it to an interested party to test paddle I replaced my short "marathon" rudder with the larger downwind / surf rudder that I had when I originally bought it. Long story short, bloke loved it but his deal with another party for the sale of his boat fell through.

Since I am not in a hurry as the new container from Stellar does not arrive until March I have since paddled the SR in some "interesting" conditions with the big rudder on it. Same as you Newbflat, what a revelation. A totally new (much, much better) feel. Increased stability and control in the rough stuff. I am now questioning my decision to upgrade as the main reason to upgrade to the new SEI was for a boat to use in this year's PaddleNSW Marathon series if things got too iffy to race my Vajda K1.

Due to competing priorities that have arisen, in all probability I will now be only competing in a few races. Given this fact and the new found excitement and enjoyment I have discovered with the change in rudder, both in stability and handling, which equates to increased speed, it is now very doubtful that I will upgrade to an SEI.

Anyway, that's my two bobs worth. ;)

Mick

Stellar SEI, Fenn Bluefin S, Sladecraft Comet Long Rec & Vajda K1
Last edit: 5 years 4 months ago by TaffyMick.

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5 years 4 months ago #27952 by Canario
My only last doubt is if a guy with wide hip/arse like me is able to fit comfortably in a Swordfish S. wouldn't it be too tight with only 45 cms for a big guy? As I can not try a Swordfish here, maybe it's better to order an Evo, which I already demoed with good sensations, even when the Swordfish is said to be more stable.

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