Epic V8 Double, V10 Double or Fenn XTS Double?

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3 years 5 months ago #33420 by ivolino
My club thinks about buying a double surfski. The idea is to put two weaker paddlers in a double so they can keep up with the faster paddlers. I am thinking about Epic V8 Double, V10 Double or Fenn XTS Double. I guess the V8 will be at bit too slow. Waves are not too big. Wind bft 4 on a 800m wide river. 

Paddled Vajda Next 52, Next 46, Epic V10 Sport, Carbonology Boost, Fenn Bluefin. Fenn Swordfish S, Vega Flex.

G´POWER Galaxy II, soft

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3 years 5 months ago #33421 by SurfskiEstonia
Could You expand a bit on this: "The idea is to put two weaker paddlers in a double so they can keep up with the faster paddlers." What is the approx. speed of the faster paddlers and what are the speeds of the slower paddlers?:)

Current: Carbonology Boost double, Jantex Gamma Mid
Previous: Nelo Ocean Ski L, Jantex Gamma Rio Large Minus

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3 years 5 months ago #33422 by ivolino
faster ones 10km/h, weaker 8-9 

Paddled Vajda Next 52, Next 46, Epic V10 Sport, Carbonology Boost, Fenn Bluefin. Fenn Swordfish S, Vega Flex.

G´POWER Galaxy II, soft

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3 years 5 months ago #33423 by SurfskiEstonia
In that case I would go for the lightest V10 Double I could afford.

My plan is to buy a Nelo 600 Double in the spring. By no means it seems a fast boat on flat water, but I wanna use it for surfing with beginners.

If I were searching for something I could use with proficient paddlers on flattish water, I would only consider narrow boats. F.e. this one: webshop.aterra.se/surfski/ss2-dubbelsurf...ology-blast-ss2.html 

Current: Carbonology Boost double, Jantex Gamma Mid
Previous: Nelo Ocean Ski L, Jantex Gamma Rio Large Minus

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3 years 5 months ago #33424 by ivolino
I am unsure if the boot is stable enough. Our girls have been happy with V10 and swordfish in calm conditions but not when it is windy.

Paddled Vajda Next 52, Next 46, Epic V10 Sport, Carbonology Boost, Fenn Bluefin. Fenn Swordfish S, Vega Flex.

G´POWER Galaxy II, soft

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3 years 5 months ago #33425 by rhainan
I have a V8 Double and a V10 Double (both Ultra).  For two average skilled paddlers, the V10 is a handful and takes some time and dedication to get comfortable with.  If one of the paddlers has less than average skills the experience can be quite challenging.  The V8 is much more forgiving and probably faster if only paddled irregularly.

People with shorter legs and more compact frames may find the V8 Double more comfortable.  I can just barely reach the pedals of the V10 Double and find the cockpit large.  No such issues with the V8. 

Western Pennsylvania Epic Kayak Dealer
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3 years 5 months ago - 3 years 5 months ago #33426 by zachhandler
I own a v10 double and have used the v8 double. I would go with the v8 double if you are deciding between those two boats. The v10double is only faster with skilled and strong paddlers. The main issue is stability. I consider myself advanced - I paddle elite skis comfortably in all conditions. If I am with another advanced paddler we are amazingly fast in the v10 double, at least on the flat. With an intermediate paddler in the back it is a mixed bag. If they are lighter than me it goes ok. If they are heavier than me the boat is wobbly and much of the speed advantage of a double is lost. With a beginner in the back, It goes fine if that other paddler is a petite woman who is too light to throw off the balance much. But with a beginner in back who is my weight or heavier it is utterly horrible.   The boat wobbles violently, and the only thing keeping it upright is my own core strength and balance. It is a slow, frustrating, joyless experience that leaves my shoulders and back sore for many days. 

As far as speed, the v10 double is 0.5 - 0.7 mph faster than a single elite ski assuming there are two equivalent paddlers in it with no balance issues. The v8 double is the same speed or perhaps 0.1 - 0.2 mph faster than an elite ski, assuming equal and highly skilled paddlers in all craft. 

Two beginners in the v10 will be swimming a lot. Two intermediates in the v10 might do ok if they have great balance, but will probably be slower and having less fun than they would be in a v8 double where they could lay down power. 

Current Skis: Kai Wa’a Vega, Nelo 550L g2, Carbonology Feather, Think Jet, Knysna Sonic X

Former Skis: Epic V12 g2, Epic V12 g1, Epic v10 double, Fenn Elite S, Custom Kayaks Synergy
Last edit: 3 years 5 months ago by zachhandler.
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3 years 5 months ago - 3 years 5 months ago #33427 by ivolino
Thanks a lot for all the information. I am sure the V10 is not the right boat. Now it's just a question of the Fenn or the V8. Nelo is although available but that  boat is really wide. 

Paddled Vajda Next 52, Next 46, Epic V10 Sport, Carbonology Boost, Fenn Bluefin. Fenn Swordfish S, Vega Flex.

G´POWER Galaxy II, soft
Last edit: 3 years 5 months ago by ivolino.

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3 years 5 months ago #33428 by owenw
On open water I race Stellar SR whilst my wife races a Carbonology Vault; on flatwater I race a Stellar SEL and she an ICF K1. After looking at the various Doubles, we bought a Carbon Vacuum Fenn XTS. This is primarily used for FUN paddling plus taking friends and family out. Towards the end of 2018 we decided to race it in a Club flatwater race, just to see how it went. In these races (11.5Km) my wife and I do very similar times in our singles and were quite surprised that we were about 5 - 7% quicker in the XTS. We have since raced it a couple more times, with similar results. Yet in the "rough stuff" this ski is really in its element; stable, comparatively dry, yet goes quite quickly. I am very happy with the Double XTS as a great all round boat and would recommend it highly.

Life truly lived is full of risk; to fence out risk is to fence out life itself
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3 years 4 months ago #33437 by Nige
I own a Fenn Elite S Double, and quite a few of our club members have XTS Doubles. The XTS is an amazingly quick, stable ski and punches well above its weight in terms of performance. In flat conditions it is only slightly slower than the Elitre S, but in windy conditions, especially big downwinds, it is easily as quick as my Elite S. Go for the XTS Double, you won't be sorry, it's a great ski!
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5 months 3 weeks ago #39353 by Davepena
Hi all

I know this is an old post but I have a related query.

Does anyone have a flat water speed comparison between the Carbonology Boost Double and Fenn XTS double?

As in, which boat is faster on tbe flat...?

Lets say both boats are glass vacuum with the same paddlers in each craft. Doing a short time trial 1 after the other in exactly the same flat water condition.

The Boost is 1cm wider than the XTS double. 

BOOST: 52 CM

XTS: 51CM

Also, would you know which boat drains water quicker from the back seat after filling up?

Many thanks
Dave


 

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5 months 3 weeks ago #39355 by robin.mousley
Not sure about the speed but...

Carbonology boats have bullet bailers, whereas the Fenn boats don't...  You can always add bullets to the Fenn bailers, but out of the box, bullet bailers definitely empty the water faster.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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5 months 3 weeks ago #39356 by Davepena
Thank you very much Rob!

This is an exceptionally valuable piece of information that helps understand why the Carbonology Boost double drains water much quicker than the Fenn XTS double. 

We took both of these boats out last week and my double partner at the back immediately noticed it. As we all know the poor back guy often sits in a wet seat most of the time.... Especially us of the novice to intermediate paddler variety! 

Not such a big stress for me at the front and not as noticeable... 

But this nugget of info will help to make a better I formed decision when choosing our next boat..... If we do buy the XTS we will definitely fit the bullet bailers! 

Thank you Rob! 


 

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5 months 3 weeks ago #39357 by SurfskiEstonia
Hello, guys!

As a paddler of a Boost Double I can say that I'm more than satisfied with the flat water speed of this ski. I was actually quite amazed at how fast it goes, accelerates etc. I have never tried the Fenn though - or for that matter any other boat apart from Epic V12 1st gen, Nelo Ocean Ski L and some slower Vajdas. I would say the flat water speed doesn't seem like an issue even compared to the Epic and Nelo.

A much bigger deal in my opinion is the shape of the bucket and width. The Boost Double has got very wide buckets, which is good for using it with taller and wider paddlers, but for me and my main paddling buddy these are too wide. We haven't outfitted them either, trying to learn to do our best in a wide bucket, but after 2 seasons I am now convinced it is unavoidable. The flat water paddling doesn't require any outfitting, but downwind paddling for sure does. So if the Fenn has narrower buckets, I would have personally gone for that.

:)

Current: Carbonology Boost double, Jantex Gamma Mid
Previous: Nelo Ocean Ski L, Jantex Gamma Rio Large Minus

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5 months 3 weeks ago #39359 by Ronbo
I have a Boost Double (and Boost triple, and used to own a Boost single). I've been happy enough with the flat water speed of the double, but I won't be winning any races.

I haven't had the same issues as above with being loose in the bucket. I used to pad out my Boost single due to getting bounced around in conditions, but haven't felt the need to in the double. Maybe it's my ample behind as I'm 183cm and 90kg. I've done a lot of paddling with a 53kg female and she hasn't complained about feeling loose in the bucket, but then again, I've not specifically asked her.

It has a low freeboard, so very wet ride in conditions. I used to find it a bit slow draining in downwind paddles. Then I removed the small rubber diaphrams from the one way valves and it now drains very quickly. It means water comes in when we're sitting still, but that isn't very often.

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5 months 1 week ago #39394 by Davepena
Hey Ronbo, Surfski Estonia and Rob Mousley

Thank you so much for your feedback regarding my query about the Carbonology Boost Double etc. 

My paddling partner and I have made a call to go for the Boost and not the Fenn XTS double primarily because of its amazing stability. It really is phenomenal in this regard. 

Regarding the seats of the Boost compared to the XTS we have found that the seats are actually smaller and more snug fitting than the XTS. I don't notice it as much in the front as much but for sure the back seat is more snug fitting. There is definitely less freeboard on the Boost but that also means that you don't sit as deep in the boat than the XTS. It feels like you have a good, aggressive, high, seating position, which is fantastic. 
Also, good for remounting! 
Yes, agreed, the seats will collect water quickly because of the low freeboard but at the same time the speed at which the seats drain with the bullet bailers means the water drains really quickly. 
I don't know if it's just the new generation Boost that has smaller seat buckets but it definitely seems to be a plus for us on the Boost that we tried. which is the latest Sport Generation X version. 
We took the tape measure out, measured the width, freeboard, checked the length, distance  of rudder from the back etc. 

I have been told that the latest Boost has improved on the volume of the nose to improve the previous versions tendency to nosedive a bit on the downwind. I think the rudder has been moved a bit further forward as well, for improved steering in downwind waves.(Not 100% sure about the rudder though) 

Most obvious things are that the Boost is shorter than the XTS Double but is, 1 cm wider (Boost 52cm and XTS 51cm).

The XTS certainly feels like it glides a bit more but the ability to maintain good paddling technique in rough water and not fight wobble due to the Boosts amazing stability is really something. 
We figure that here in Cape Town we are going to be paddling in rough water 80 to 90% of the time and not pristine flat water so the, advantage of the stability trumps it for us. It will give us so much more confidence on big downwinds and rough seas. 
Downwind wise the Boost is phenomenal, it tracks really well, not prone to broaching and the ability to catch and link runs is awesome. 

I guess our choice of boat is coming down to us still being very much not well balanced intermediate paddlers and are big guys of 90 and 100kg's.

We'll take our chances on the flat water and give a bit more effort when need to push out more speed.Lol.

But in actual fact we haven't found much speed differences between the 2 boats in various conditions, so theg might perform similarly.

Cheers
All the best guys, thanks for the chats

Dave

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