Fenn Elite vs Epic V12

Hi Everyone
Im new to this forum, so please, if I put this in the wrong section, just be patient!!
I had an Fenn Elite, broke it and are in the market for either the carbon Elite or an carbon Epic V12, I have read all the info about the V12 and it looks great, but can someone maybe put something together to compare the 2 ski's , speed and stabality and they claim the V12 is for flat water and small surf, is that because of the construction, that it cant take bigger stuff or is it because its got a low deck in the front?? I am weighing 72kg and have no problem with balance, Im also paddling K1's.
Thanks Frohan

g'day Frohan,

I would also consider the red7 surf 70 pro. It would be
close on speed and downwind ability.

Thanks Dicko
I hear what u saying, but to be honest, I dont like the Red7 so much, I have been trying one.

They claim the V12 is the fastest boat on the water, I am looking for the fastest, but, where is the Elite on speed and stability comparing to the V12.

I have not paddled surfski for too long but have paddle K1 and sea racing kayaks for long time and been fortunate to paddle all two V12 and fenn elite in last weeks.I do not think v12 is faster than elite fenn BUT I can be sure to say that Fenn is much more robust (maybe because not made in China)Too many Epic boats give trouble in Italy.Fenn Nothing.No trouble.Epic paddles are good but very fragile.
I will definately choose Fenn boat any day. Rock Hard
Regards
Bruno

Thanks Bruno
I heard semilar stories about the China Epics, I know the Fenn Elite and will then definately get another Elite again. Thanks for the info!!
Frohan

Hello Frohan. The Fenn Elite represents great value , whether you going for the glass or carbon option. Unless you are sponsored by Epic it does not make sense to have such a fragile boat. Most of the damage that occurs to skis is either a nasty shorebreak and also general handling off the water, this is is what makes the Fenn superior! Cheers
Traut

Hi Frohan,
please let us know how you broke your Fenn Elite (this is how you started the topic)? I am responsible for Epic distribution in Europe and the comments i read regarding our boats interest me a lot. I paddle almost every day in various sea conditions. I have personally damaged a couple of our kayaks and every time that has happened because I made mistakes doing long distance delivery trips. The main reason for transportation damages are: driving at high speed on uneven roads, over tightening the straps, boat leaning on hard objects. Sometimes when inspection isn't done in time, damage cause by transportation could be discovered while on water and then the claim would be that the boat broke in nearly flat water conditions while the actual damage occurred on someones roof racks.
Best Regards
Boyan

Traut, firstly, thanks for your opinion, Im getting another Fenn, for sure!!!

Boyan, Im paddling many years and are looking really very well after my K1's and ski's, so this was absolute mind blowing how my boat broke. Firstly I haven?t used this Elite never in big surf and about 3 weeks after I got it last year in October, while picking it up to put on the roof rack, I press thought the seam on the right hand side in the middle of the cockpit. The boat was send back to Fenn and they repaired it at no cost. Now, 10 months later, after paddling, I got out of the boat in 10cm deep water, stood up, a small wave came and took the boat, I grab it at the cockpit exactly where it was repaired to prevent it from being washed away, 10cm wave, at this moment, I for some reason lost my balance and fell forward to the enjoyment of my 4 paddling friends, the boat still in the water, after being drag for about 5 meters by this small wave, I stood up and wanted to pick the boat up and realized its bloody heavy. Then I noticed that the seam came undone for about 2,5m on the other side of the boat. I phone Fenn and they wanted to see the boat, but in the meantime I put a claim in at my insurance and now they want the boat after paying me out, so unfortunately the boat wont been able to go back to Fenn for inspection. This was my main concern before I bought another Fenn and it might give me the same problems. I must say, I had a Millenium for about 3 years, rode enormous big surf with the boat and never any problem; I sold it to get the faster Elite.
Cheers Frohan

hi Frohan,
thanks, that was very interesting. It is a fact that every manufacturer could experience such problems and it is not the problem but the way it is managed after it happens and the changes that are implemented to prevent it from happening again. I have respect for all boat manufacturers and although I work with Epic I believe that there is no one boat that suites all paddlers and all paddling abilities. That's why I don't really like it when people make statements about the performance or durability of any kayak brands based on their perception or something they heard from somebody. For example the comment that there is no difference in the speed of V12 and Fenn Elite. That difference if it exists can only be proven by tow tank testing or by going trough a test designed to compare the boats at the same conditions (for example 10 x 1000 m at heart rate 160 changing your boat every other repetition, and repeating that in various sea and wind conditions). I believe it is impossible to come to a conclusion just by taking the boat out once for a casual paddling. I paddle V10 Performance for the last 1.5 years (previously Fenn Millennium and Mako 6) and at the time I started using my boat i would only be able to reach 16.8 km/h max speed for a short sprint (although I was much more trained then) at completely flat water. I only recently beat that last week when i sprinted for 18 km/h max speed during my Saturday session at flat and calm conditions in the same small lake i did 16.8 km/h. As you are a very experienced paddler you know that boat speed is very subjective thing and the potential hull speed is different to the speed given paddler could achieve using that hull. I have spoken to many paddlers this year during my trips and could say that seating comfort, feet positioning and comfort along with boat stability have the biggest impact on the overall speed you could reach and maintain. I have had many clients from Europe who chose our kayaks and i just had to help them get the bets model for their paddling level. I also had clients who chose Epic over other brands and they did that for a number of reasons. Some of them were: comfort of the seat, quality of the steering system and comfort of the foot peddles, overall detail and quality of finishing, use of materials (some of the materials we use cannot be found in other kayaks although they are well known but some manufacturers prefer not to use them because of higher manufacturing costs). I also had a funny experience once when someone squeezed my Performance V10 and asked my why this carbon boat was a bit softer than other brands (our performance kayaks are made of fiberglass). Please don't take this as a sales speech. Whatever boat you chose I am happy that you are a devoted surfski paddler like most of us. Cheers.
Boyan

Frohan, I don't believe that it's fair to generalize regarding Epic quality. Epic makes good skis. They've got different design ideas, layups, and layers of quality control from FEnn, which complicates matters.

I've never owned an Epic ski but have paddled several in races and in training (I've owned Fenns, Custom Kayaks, Thinks, Findeisens, Futuras). I don't believe that it's the brand per se, but the layup that poses problems and leads to generalizations. Specifically, my HUNCH is that the Epic Ultra layup kevlar/core ski is quite susceptible to hard knocks, being squeezed by too-tight rack straps, etc., while the similarly priced FEnn carbon ski stands up to similar abuse because of what seems like a solid composite construction. I've had two carbon FEnns with soft spots, though. The Epic Ultra layup is about 3-5 lbs lighter than the carbon Fenns. Is that trade-off (softer skin vs weight savings) worth it? to some it is.

However, the Performance layup Epics seem a better deal than the fiberglass FEnns. I believe prices are ballpark similar, the Epics run about 32 lbs and the glass Fenn's run heavier (a friend in Florida has a 40 lb glass Elite, yikes). Both layups here are probably fairly durable. Remember the two Epics that got caught under the barge in NYC last year? The ultra was trashed, the Performance only needed a new rudder because it got snapped off.

The Epic all carbon elite layup skis are probably similar to the carbon Fenns in durability, I would guess, about 7 lbs lighter but more expensive. Both with stiff resistant hulls.

Epics have better finish if that matters to you.

The Epics and FEnn Elite are all fast skis. Outside of a tow tank, they're probably the same performance. But, If the V12 is 1% faster than the Fenn on flatwater with the scupper closed, then just ride its wake in a Fenn for a 5% savings.

Which to get? Look at their comfort for yourself, how you like the other things like footplate, rudder, etc. The Epic skis have lower gunwales and many think that they are easier to get into - the flipside is that the Fenns might have a drier ride. I can't under-emphasize the importance of comfort, too.

How much do you want to spend, i.e. what boat weight are you looking at? Since I don't like to treat my skis with a kid glove, I would opt for either the Epic Elite carbon layup, the carbon Fenn, or the Epic Performance by price point - all else being equal, and that's just my opinion based on minimal facts and from what I've seen.

Both Epic and Fenn are small companies, too, it's not a Wal Mart vs local family builder issue. Epic just SEEMS big because they've had an advertising/marketing plan for years while Fenn is still working on putting content on a website. Both companies take advantage of low wage areas to build skis - Chinese vs S. African, take your pick.

Avoid supporting brand-bashing of Fenn, Epic, and Think and Huki, Custom, etc. They're all trying to make good products and advance the sport of ski racing, and for that we paddlers should be thankful.

And remember, these companies are not just "companies". They have owners and employees with spouses and children to support, too.
Erik Borgnes

Erik and Boyan
Thank you both for your input on this matter, I really appreciate it. I hope you didn?t understood me wrong, I wasn?t blaming Fenn for anything, that was just my experience with my newish Elite and as I said, I was very happy with my Millenium, I think because I know the Fenn Elite, its comfortable for me, fast enough and even in very rough water I can still put some hard strokes in and its super smooth over the swells, I will stick to the Fenn for the moment. I will definitely get the carbon lay-up.