Carbonology Sport "Vault" a midpackers review

9 years 5 months ago #6389 by AR_convert
Hey Tom, I've only just ordered it. The container arrives later this month.

If you order before the container arrives Gary can drop it off on his way back to Bunbury!

Hmmmm, rather than restating what I've already reported in my review the Vault sits somewhere between the V10 sport and the V10L.

As others have said, it is an intermediate boat,if you are coming from a Sport, XT, EVO, you will gain a tad more speed but a tad less stability also. Once again although I was fast in my V10L on the flat and up to 1-2 foot chop I used to fall apart when fatigued downwind, this boat should help me develop a little more given that I am not a full time paddler.

If I understand your situation correctly you are coming from a plastic ski....if you are prepared to do a lot of flat water training regularly you would probably get confident in the boat in about 4-6 months, otherwise I would go for a Sport, XT etc.

As has been said countless times on this forum, these entry level ski's will hold thier value as new people coming into the sport will also need them, so my advice would be do your apprenticeship like I did then look at the Vault in 12 months time.

The sport, XT etc will also have you out in the downwind conditions much sooner and you will be having more fun rather than flopping around trying to stay upright ;)

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 4 months ago #6482 by AR_convert
After being cleared by my surgeon to return to full training after having a plate taken out of my shoulder I have been chafing at the bit to get into my new "Vault" on Monday.

So in anticipation I thought I'd have another look at the Carbonology site, yep :unsure: still a PDF page :( then I saw a new site on the search engine, a new Australian site :woohoo:

Check it out ;)

carbonology.com.au/

and facebook page

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

9 years 5 months ago #6500 by red_pepper
I'm kind of curious about why you sold your V10L and went looking for another boat when you said in the review you were happy with it? Just a case of wanting something new? :)

Is the Carbonology Atom available in the States? How heavy of a paddler will it handle for flat water racing? I really like my V10L Ultra and would love to have a V12 as well, but with a 20'8" garage, the idea of having an equally fast boat that will fit on the wall (as opposed to taking up space diagonally) is quite appealing!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

9 years 5 months ago #6501 by Rightarmbad
"Also, once you are on a wave, you will be travelling at the same speed as anyone else on that wave (regardless of ski length)."

Not necessarily, if you stay high on the wave, then angle across the waveface to build up speed as you then come down, then the hull speed does start to play a role in your speed in the bump, as you are now travelling a fair bit faster than the wave.
If you come off the wave faster, it is easier to catch the next one.

So while there is a big bit of truth in your statement, it is also not the complete word on the subject.

I think that this is what Clint Robinson was referring to when he speaks of the V12 about it's ability to not be limited by hull speed on a wave.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

9 years 5 months ago #6502 by mckengmsurfski
Red_Pepper,
Carbonology skis are available in the USA, though I've yet to see one in person.
On the east coast I would think the guy to talk to is Bruce Gipson at www.venturesport.com (the website is anything but updated, so just give him a call or email).
On the west coast you want DeAnne and Pat Hemmens at www.oceanpaddlesports.com

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #6504 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re:Carbonology Sport
red_pepper wrote:

I'm kind of curious about why you sold your V10L and went looking for another boat when you said in the review you were happy with it? Just a case of wanting something new? :)


Yes I was very happy with the V10L in almost all conditions accept for downwind. I went for the V10L as I wanted a lower volume boat so that when running upwind or side onto chop it wasnt too much of a handful. I was able to paddle it at about 11.7 km/hr over 14km loop in my local waters and was able to stay with most of the specialist ski paddlers in the area on training runs.

BUT..I have running, cycling and swimming to fit into the Adventure racing training schedule so I only get to paddle twice and if I'm real lucky 3 times per week. For the paddler who can get out more often than this they could and probably do master the ski in all conditions.

I guess I was looking for a ski with marginally more stability in the swell without losing any speed. At the moment I've judged that to be the Vault, I will know in a month or two when I get to run it over the same courses I have Garmin GPS records of already over the past few years.

Most others would probably not change a ski for the reasons I have but in the top end of Adventure races the margins even over 5 hours are very close so I'm always looking for any little improvement.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

9 years 5 months ago #6508 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re:Carbonology Sport
Did you ever try a Fenn elite in bigger water?
I find it way more 'predictable' than my V10.

I don't think that tippiness is the right word.
Doesn't matter if a ski is a bit tippy if you know what to expect from it.

I find the Epic just throws in some weirdness every now and again, whereas the Fenn doesn't, even though it is marginally more tippy just to paddle in the flat.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

9 years 5 months ago #6550 by AR_convert
Vault arrived tonight :woohoo:

Only apparent minor update since the demo is to the rudder pedals.

They have run the rudder cord through the pedal rather than through grommets, a bit neater. B)

And they have impregnated the logo into the rudder pedals :)

Will be out in the morning for a quick paddle before Uni, then hopefully the first downwind on Saturday.


Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)
The following user(s) said Thank You: ts-d

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

9 years 5 months ago #6552 by Rightarmbad
Is the footwell really narrow? It looks that way in the photo.
That may have been the inspiration for the new cable set up.
I assume that there is a tube running through the pedals, I like!
Now, if they had of included an adjuster on each side instead of just tying knots, it would have been pretty smick.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

9 years 5 months ago #6553 by MikeWoodrow
Yeah, the footwell is very narrow. I recall from my test paddle before Christmas that it was very snug, and I don't have big feet!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

9 years 5 months ago #6557 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic Re:Carbonology Sport
MikeWoodrow wrote:

Yeah, the footwell is very narrow. I recall from my test paddle before Christmas that it was very snug, and I don't have big feet!


When I first met Martin Gunda paddling the Carbon Atom (coming from a Carbon V10L) that was one of his comments that the narrow well allowed him to brace his calves/thighs against the sides in big conditions giving him more stability.

I wasnt going to post any more thoughts on the Vault until I had paddled it a couple of weeks in various conditions but inmy first paddle this morning (a quick 9km downwind in 1-2 ft wind blown chop) I found the boat just "fit" really well, you do feel very snug but comfortable with those high narrow sides...more soon ;)

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

9 years 5 months ago #6563 by heinvr
Replied by heinvr on topic Re:Carbonology Sport
Rightarmbad wrote:

Is the footwell really narrow? It looks that way in the photo.
That may have been the inspiration for the new cable set up.
I assume that there is a tube running through the pedals, I like!
Now, if they had of included an adjuster on each side instead of just tying knots, it would have been pretty smick.


Im glad you like our new pedals... :)
Why would an adjuster on each side be great? The pedals never need to be adjusted, you just move the peddals forward and back and they self adjust the cable..
No knots would be the BEST! Any ideas?
But as I said, unless the rope stretches, the factory setting on the rudder should be right.

The well is snug, but we like it that way, 1cm could be a kg of water when trying to get out through big surf...

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

9 years 5 months ago - 9 years 5 months ago #6565 by Rightarmbad
An adjuster on each side would allow quick and easy setting of the angle of the pedals compared to the footplate.

Not everybody runs them the same angle and trying to tie a knot at your preferred angle is just hit and miss.
The knots also tend to tighten over time when wet and the pedals gradually start to point away from your original setting.

Also allows to centre the rudder easily.

I will fit some adjusters to my V10 as soon as I find some.
I've been trying to get a hold of some like they use in K1's, but it's not something that I can just walk into a store and get.
I could envisage a plastic turnbuckle each side that is anchored to the existing mounting point for the bungies.

That way no knots and very easy to set up exactly as you want it.

Thanks for listening to user feedback.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

9 years 4 months ago - 9 years 4 months ago #6595 by AR_convert
Some more thought now that I've had the ski a few days.

Went out on Saturday arvo but as daylight was running short we decided to paddle upwind for 4-5km before turning downwind rather than chance the 13km downwind we had planned.

I wasn’t overly enthusiastic taking my new boat out into 1-2 metre swells and 20-25 knot headwinds :blink:

But away we went and I was actually very surprised at how well the boat managed the lumpy conditions. Of course the boat was being swamped regularly in these conditions BUT the venturis worked so well I never felt like I lost too much forward momentum.

One thing different from my V10L was the sensation of instability as I crested a wave, the Vault feels a lot more planted through the crest of a wave.

When we turned and headed downwind it took me a good couple of kilometres before I started to trust the boat, but once I did I was really enjoying the ability to continue paddling hard onto each run rather than paddle half a dozen times before I'd need to brace.

It wasn’t really long enough to get a good impression but I was still happy. That all changed on Monday night :P

11 of us headed out on Monday arvo to do the full "cut run", 13 km downwind in 2 metre swell and about 20 knot winds. We sorted ourselves into similar speed groups for safety and I was paddling with another midpacker in his Think Uno.

We took off initially across the swells for a few hundred metres to get our line right for the downwind, this would have been nerve racking in the V10L but while I was still nervous in those big conditions the boat was giving me confidence.

We turned to go and wow, what a ride, we both took it easy to begin with feeling our way down the big runners and then over went my partner, I turned around (not something I like doing :dry: , but the Vault just seems to have that little bit more stability in the rough that makes it less daunting.)

Once he was back in we were off again, after about 4-5 km of a fairly easy pace we both started to find our feet so to speak.

I was really starting to get confident with being able to accelerated through the top of the swell and onto it, previous when I had tried this I would become too unstable and fall out or I would just stop paddling, brace and let the swell pass under me, sometimes leading to stalling the boat. :blush:

Another couple of kilometres passed and I started to surf the runs and then steer looking for other holes, I was really starting to enjoy the boat a lot more…then I came out :S

I had been paddling hard across the swell to try to link a run and just lost balance.

I tried getting my chest into the bucket to pull myself up and into the bucket from behind but the sides are too high, I went back to my usual method of grabbed each side of the bucket with two hand and jumping in sideways leaning back to lower centre of gravity, grabbing paddle in both hands to brace, then lifting my legs into position one at a time.
Once that was over with I thought, well okay, I know I can get back in now.

I regained my composure over the next few hundred metres then I was straight back into trying to link runners, paddling hard and generally just really enjoying myself.

I was genuinely blown away I was able to do this in a ski I have only owned a few days and I am very excited for what I will be able to do in this ski once my fitness returns as I recover from the shoulder injury and operations.

I genuinely believe this to be the ideal boat for those like me who are only paddling up to a few times per week.

When we got back I snapped a few photos of the boat against a couple of other boats as we washed them down so people who haven’t seen one in the flesh can see how they compare to two of the more common boats, the V12 and V10 sport.


The Vault on the left is actually level at the tail with the V12.


This was an Ahhhaa moment for me, when put next to the V10 sport the width of the boat from behind the bucket gives you a hint of where the extra stability comes from, but when you turn the two boats over...



You can see that the width of the sport is carried down to the hull very gradually to the large flat area on the hull bottom.

While the Vault tapers more drastically towards the hull bottom. I believe the thoery here is that on the flat water less hull area is in contact with the water on the Vault, but as the water comes up the sides of the ski either in swell, bumps or when leaning the boat over the water meet the wider part of the boat and aids stability giving the extra stability without sacrificing too much flat water speed.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)
The following user(s) said Thank You: ts-d

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

9 years 4 months ago #6599 by Rightarmbad
The real theory is that a V shaped hull is more stable but slightly higher drag.

The further you depart from a circular cross section, the more wetted area you have for the same submerged volume. More drag.

As you tip a V hull, it quickly introduces more volume into the water on the side you tip towards, thereby creating the stability.

The V will also add to directional stability, which may have been necessary due to the shorter length.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

9 years 4 months ago #6601 by heinvr
Replied by heinvr on topic Re:Carbonology Sport
Rightarmbad wrote:

I've been trying to get a hold of some like they use in K1's, but it's not something that I can just walk into a store and get.
I could envisage a plastic turnbuckle each side that is anchored to the existing mounting point for the bungies.

That way no knots and very easy to set up exactly as you want it.

Thanks for listening to user feedback.


Great Idea, I have seen some in the VAJDA Kayaks and they work well. I think Epic also have them in their K1 and K2.

We have to get around leglength though, as a buckle will take up a lot of space behind the pedals for a tall person.

I guess you can have them in from of the pedals for tall guys and behind for short guys, but needs some more thinking.

I have some ideas to get around it.. Watch this future development from CarbonollogySport, thanks to a great suggestion from you.

Cheers,
Hein

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

9 years 4 months ago #6602 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re:Carbonology Sport
Space is not as big of an issue as you might think.

On my Epic, even with the footplate maxed out for length, there is 14cm measured from the bottom hole in the pedal to the mounting screw for the bungies.

To cater for a full range of 'pedal towards you' and 'pedals slightly away from you', only requires a maximum of 2cm adjustment.

On your boat pictured above, it differs due to the lack of step in the footwell that the Epic has, but the real important thing is the mounting point.

Simply by raising your mounting point higher up, you gain length very quickly.
It should not be a problem.

If I was back in my home town where I had access to a machine shop, I would have made something by now.

My dream solution is a moulded plastic part with a threaded part with a ball on it that the thumbscrew screws into,that mounts directly to the boat with a large diameter knurled plastic thumbscrew with 20mm of thread.
The thumbscrew is hollow and the cord passes through and is simply knotted to stop it pulling through.
Where the knot is, would be a nicely radiused cup that didn't try to cut the cord as this is blind to inspection.

The ball and socket allows for any angle within reason so it can mount to virtually any boat.

Wouldn't need to be any longer than about 30mm.
So really length is not a problem, just the vision to produce the thing.

There may already be a similar fitting out there already.
I just try and think of another industry that may require it and do a goolge search.

Haven't found it yet, but I am getting better at where to look.

If all else fails, a single adjuster like the Epic or Vajder would be OK fitted to join the two sides together, where the Epic now has a knot.
Space is no problem in that setup and I have already ordered an adjuster of that sort as my fallback.

It just makes re-centering necessary every time you adjust it.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

9 years 4 months ago #6608 by AndrewN
Replied by AndrewN on topic Re:Carbonology Sport
Hein!

You need to get a Vault up here to Durban...I'll baby sit one for you if you want? =)

Surf Ski series starts soon so don't miss the opportunity!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

9 years 4 months ago #6609 by AR_convert
Ticked another box today. Between riding swells off a local groin/ marina and a 10km paddle I racked up 2hrs 15min in the bucket without a break and the legs weren't jelly when I hit the beach! This is important in adventure racing when you don't want to lose time in transition waiting for the legs to get going again ;)

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

9 years 4 months ago #6611 by Rightarmbad
Had a quick measure of the Vadjer adjusters, they will fit no problems on an Epic. Length will clear easily even on full length cockpit.
2 on order, will post a picture when I have fitted them.
I couldn't get to measure an Epic one, but from memory they were very similar.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Latest Forum Topics

How do you get a slick bucket? (5 Posts)

5 hours 40 minutes ago
arminius's Avatar

V12g1 vs SEL g2 (3 Posts)

16 hours 29 minutes ago

Bucket comfort/padding (5 Posts)

1 day 5 hours ago
Protected by R Antispam