Carbonology Sport "Vault" a midpackers review

9 years 1 month ago #7835 by Rightarmbad
As promised, I have half an hour of Anaconda giggles.
The 3 meter seas didn't turn up, but a few good sets coming through caught a lot out.

Now how do I edit it and compress it to present here?

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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9 years 1 month ago - 9 years 1 month ago #7845 by AR_convert

Rightarmbad wrote: As promised, I have half an hour of Anaconda giggles.
The 3 meter seas didn't turn up, but a few good sets coming through caught a lot out.

Now how do I edit it and compress it to present here?


Cool, lookiong forward to checking it out, I just upload the files to Youtube then provide the links.

Here's one I uploaded last night of a small local race I was in yesterday, I'm in the blue top with the big hair wash riding the double ski until I had to veer around a paddler who capsized.



EDIT: and for those wandering what this has to do with a Vault reveiw :) ...you can see the difference in the Vaults volume when in the water up against other skis!

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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9 years 1 month ago #7846 by MhojoNZ
Just a comment - you seemed to have a similar paddling fault to me (for which I am always being told off for), which is not extending your top arm fully. You will get more rotation and a more forward entry if you get your arm fully extended.

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9 years 1 month ago - 9 years 1 month ago #7847 by AR_convert

MhojoNZ wrote: Just a comment - you seemed to have a similar paddling fault to me (for which I am always being told off for), which is not extending your top arm fully. You will get more rotation and a more forward entry if you get your arm fully extended.


:laugh: I should have expected that, actually it's the first time I've had video taken of me paddling (and theres lot more I wont bore people here with). I did see lots of things that needed work on, it's funny how you think you are paddling well until you see the video. It's actually very exciting to realise that while staying with some better paddlers you still have improvement to make outside of fitness B)

EDIT: Actually you've given me an idea for a new thread, "Analyse my stroke", we could all learn something from watching and critiquing each others strokes.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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9 years 2 weeks ago - 9 years 2 weeks ago #8156 by AR_convert
Thanks to all those helpful tips on my stroke I managed a PB in the ski this week. Absolutely stoked as I'm in the middle of hard training for an adventure race at the start of next month.

I managed an average of 11.7km/hr over my regular 11km circuit paddle (Locally known as a stick run ).

I reckon 12 km/hr avg isn't too far away :)

MhojoNZ wrote: Just a comment - you seemed to have a similar paddling fault to me (for which I am always being told off for), which is not extending your top arm fully. You will get more rotation and a more forward entry if you get your arm fully extended.


I looked a bit more into this and you are right, I had thought you meant to have the top arm straight before paddle entry but now realise that the top arm doesn't need to be extended until after you place the paddle in the water, then you get a leverage effect as you are pulling on one side and extending the top arm on the other.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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9 years 4 days ago #8365 by ts-d
Replied by ts-d on topic Re:Carbonology Sport
hello AR_convert,

are you correcting your stile?


seakayaks (Francesconi Esplora, Lettman Polar, Valley Nordkapp Jubilee), Stellar SR

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9 years 4 days ago - 9 years 4 days ago #8366 by AR_convert
I started another thread (analyse my stroke) for people to have a laugh and poke fun at my stroke ;)

Yes it has improved with all the input I got from you guys! Did another PB in the Vault over my course the other day of 11.9km/hr avg over 11km, and repeated it yesterday in some sloppier conditions.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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9 years 4 days ago #8371 by ts-d
Thanks - will you upload the video again?
I read the pdf-book Surf Ski Supremacy from Damian Papworth.
And I found it very helpful, especially I'm a visual book-learner.
Your strokes seem to me as fluent, but the technique increasable. Sorry. But I'm fare away from the perfect stroke and I'm learning too and like it to look at several videos (such as yours in youtube or The Kajak Forward Stroke from Greg Barton and Oscar Chalupsky) are very vivid and helpful to find out my own mistakes to make it better.
A coach would be the best choice, I know, but who has got a coach???

seakayaks (Francesconi Esplora, Lettman Polar, Valley Nordkapp Jubilee), Stellar SR

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8 years 11 months ago #8700 by Dicko
I've had a Vault for a week or so now and like most new toys I've now had about 30 paddles. "Em, is it alright if I go for a paddle"
The novelty has almost worn off. I thought I'd give my initial impressions.
Stability. This boat easily has the best primary stability of any boat I've paddled recently. It feels like a v10 sport only a tighter fit, so for me it is probably feels even more stable.
Speed. It has similar speed to my Think Legend and slower than my old red 7 pro (but most things are). Downwind both previous boats were quicker, mostly because they run better than the Vault. The Vault seems to accelerates quicker but takes a bit more effort to keep at speed. The red 7 used to punch through the wave in front whereas the vault requires a bit more effort to get on the next wave. The Legend was just fun downwind.
The boat tends to wander a bit on a confused downwind and I think a new more balanced rudder will solve the problem. It did on the Legend.
The best thing about this boat is its ability to draft. It catches any small lump. I've never had a boat that will sit behind a boat with such little effort. You can be a boat length or 2 back and just sit on the wash and get towed along. I can see myself getting lazy. You can be virtually alongside the boat next to you to feel the lift. So any loss of speed is virtually eliminated by... by....cheating, no, clever use of the available resources.
Really good boat. Fast if you've got the motor to drive it, and almost beginner level stability. I just don't like the standard rudder, with the post at the leading edge. You seem to lose a degree of manouverability (where's spell check) across the wave.

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8 years 11 months ago - 8 years 11 months ago #8722 by AR_convert

Dicko wrote: I've had a Vault for a week or so now and like most new toys I've now had about 30 paddles.


Whoah, that came from left field, this is the same Dicko from Perth who (until recently) paddles Think Legend?

Dicko wrote: The boat tends to wander a bit on a confused downwind and I think a new more balanced rudder will solve the problem. The best thing about this boat is its ability to draft. It catches any small lump. Really good boat. Fast if you've got the motor to drive it, and almost beginner level stability. I just don't like the standard rudder, with the post at the leading edge. You seem to lose a degree of manouverability (where's spell check) across the wave.


I named this tendency to wander directional stability and put it down to the rocker and shorter length of the ski. I cant really comment with much authority on how well it drafts as I havent got much experience drafting others as adventure racing tends to be like time trialing, by the time you get on the ski you are usually by yourself racing the clock. I passed a fella in the Augusta race a couple of weeks ago that eventually came over to me and tried drafting me from the side, I had to warn him that we would come together as on the side chop it does move a round a lot more than a full length ski, he responded by dropping in behind.

Downwind I agree, at first I was put off by this movement but then I saw the benefit of being able to change direction easier to chase runs, having said that the rudder is as you say under responsive, in bigger conditions I really work the peddles to change direction and have toyed with the idea of a slighlty bigger surf rudder. On Monday I got the opportunity to paddle another Vault with a huge surf rudder....on the first big run I almost catapulted myself out of the boat it had so much bite! It took me quite a while to feel comfortable with it but wow, what a difference, I reckon something in between may be in order for my ski.

I have just got a river rudder you are welcome to trial, I will be asking Carbonology about a bigger downwind rudder very soon.

There is a downwind run being hosted by the Mandurah Ocean Club on Saturday if you can get along, otherwise I may see you at the Bay to Beach race!?

www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=123565667754159

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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8 years 11 months ago - 8 years 11 months ago #8727 by ts-d
hi ar_convert,

this is the normal rudder and the large rudder side by side



They aren't very different in size.

I would be very interested in your experiences, because my vault is ordered for April 2012, is it better to take the traditional rudder as Hein says or the large one? Thanks!

seakayaks (Francesconi Esplora, Lettman Polar, Valley Nordkapp Jubilee), Stellar SR

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8 years 11 months ago #8731 by Dicko
The problem isn't so much the size, it's where the shaft is placed. When the shaft is too far forward the rudder is ok at low speed, but as you build speed on a wave it creates a lot of "lift" behind the shaft and suddenly it requires a lot more foot pressure
to turn the rudder. I think what happens next is you overuse the rudder to compesate and this creates turbulence and the rudder doesn't actually work for about a second until the water flows over it properly again. It's like a delayed steering action. In small clean waves it doesn't matter as much so you don't tend to notice. In lumpy difficult waves where you need more control and subtle changes in steering to help balance etc it is very disconcerting.
A rudder with the shaft more balanced, ie further back, doesn't do this. You can control the boat better. Where we live is fairly windy so a balanced rudder is generally better.
If you paddle in cleaner waves the smaller rudder will be faster.
Rob Mousley is really big on balanced rudders to stop boats broaching downwind and he can probably explain why they work better than I can.

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8 years 11 months ago #8734 by AR_convert

ts-d wrote: hi ar_convert,

this is the normal rudder and the large rudder side by side



They aren't very different in size.

I would be very interested in your experiences, because my vault is ordered for April 2012, is it better to take the traditional rudder as Hein says or the large one? Thanks!


The rudder used on this other Vault i borrowed isn't the one pictured, it came off a double ski as a trial to see how a bigger one would go, the size that you have pictured looks more suitable to me. Having said that, it's only when the conditions get big, say over 2metres that I think I would like a bigger rudder, hence why in 9 months I haven't bothered. In pure wind blown 2-3 foot chop the standard rudder is fine.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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8 years 11 months ago #8742 by heinvr

Dicko wrote: The problem isn't so much the size, it's where the shaft is placed. When the shaft is too far forward the rudder is ok at low speed, but as you build speed on a wave it creates a lot of "lift" behind the shaft and suddenly it requires a lot more foot pressure
to turn the rudder.


Well said Dicko, here at Carbonology we are particularly aware and interested in rudders and how they affect the performance and feel of our skis.
As you quite rightly note, It actually not so much the size as the pin placement.
We choose a modest, further forward pin placement as our general rudder as it gives a "softer" feel to the paddler. A more agressive rudder is great for an experienced paddler and highly recommended, but can be a bit twitchy for a less experienced paddler.
Both the photos that Thomas has posted are actually used as a bigger or smaller rudder. We have set lengths thta we cut them at depending on the type of ski and the customers needs.
We are hoping to replace our traditional shape (one on the left) with the newly designed one on the right as we find that the increased "rake" moves the centre of lift sufficiently back that we can move the pin to a more aggressive and balanced point and then getting a good compromise between balance while still maintaining a good feel. The foil thickness of the new rudder is also thicker to prevent the rudder from stalling.
Then we still have the Eliptical shape for the extremely confident downwind paddler.
Regards,
Hein

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8 years 11 months ago #8743 by Dicko
I have to say that I really like the Vault. Paddling it is a lot of fun. One of the things I liked about the Legend was the choice of rudders. You could put on a small rudder or a surf rudder and you had a boat that had very different characteristics. The rudders were readily available and reasonably priced. It was like owning 2 boats. I have ordered the eliptical rudder from Hein and will probably use the current rudder on small days. I reckon rudder placement and design is one of the areas that boats can still improve. I still remember the days when Simon Anderson turned the surfing world upside down when he bunged a third rudder on a surfboard. Can you imagine a snaplock rudder system on a ski where it takes 10 seconds to change a rudder prior to a paddle.
A small rudder literally adds 300 metres an hour to your speed.
In a racing situation if its fairly small a small rudder could mean places. An eliptical rudder for waves, a weedless rudder if theres weed, maybe 2 small thruster fins for really lumpy days.
Back to work.

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8 years 11 months ago #8744 by Kayaker Greg
What do people mean when they say "rudder stalling"? What does the rudder and ski do? :unsure:

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8 years 11 months ago #8747 by AR_convert

Dicko wrote: I have ordered the eliptical rudder from Hein


Hein, can you please add one of the bigger surf rudders to that order. About to unpack my new Vault :) just picked up last night, very exciting :)

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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8 years 11 months ago - 8 years 11 months ago #8748 by fredrik
AR convert, just curious, why did you buy a new Vault. The "old" one is/was only 8 months old.

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8 years 11 months ago - 8 years 11 months ago #8749 by Bill L

Kayaker Greg wrote: What do people mean when they say "rudder stalling"? What does the rudder and ski do? :unsure:


Whenever you create a situation where you do not have a clean flow (laminar flow) over the rudder, it loses its ability to steer the boat and often slows it down. One way to make it happen is to apply too much rudder; doing so breaks the flow stream and turns the rudder into a "plow".

If it happens (stall) to the wings of a plane while in the air, the plane falls out of the sky, so, not so good.

Bill L

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8 years 11 months ago #8754 by AR_convert

ts-d wrote:
this is the normal rudder and the large rudder side by side



Here is my normal rudder beside my new river rudder, I have seen smaller river rudders and hoped to pick up a little more speed on the flat as well as improved weed shedding ability, will wait to see how it performs before passing judgement. Car keys added to give scale to rudders.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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