Double Ski choice

8 years 8 months ago #8993 by Rightarmbad
Replied by Rightarmbad on topic Re: Double Ski choice
I would like to see the bailer morph into a truly surf ski specific device.
There is no need for the current bailer to open fully up and it should be restricted as such so as not to enter the 'no extra useful function but carries a high drag penalty area'.

There should be an indented stop at the point where the reverse flow control flap opens and allows the bucket to empty with minimal drag and then simply a full open where it doesn't enter the stupid high drag area.

The lever would be person friendly in that it doesn't threaten to cut you to pieces if you accidentally kick it and not require a weird or complicate motion to operate.
It would also help if it could be nudged by the foot instead of having to stop paddling to operate.

A truly surf ski fitting, would be smaller overall as well as lighter and probably just use a round cut hole to mount.

None of this is rocket science and would take a competent person a very short time to design and if manufactured in numbers to satisfy the surf ski community, it would also be cost effective.

Somebody like Epic are in an ideal position to implement the device.
I bet the man from Think is already rolling designs around in his head......It seems to me that they have considered the importance of fit-out much more than most manufacturers.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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5 years 6 months ago #23234 by Kneewall49
Replied by Kneewall49 on topic Double Ski choice
Can't believe its been 3 yrs since this thread?

Since then we sold our XT and bought about the first Epic double into Australia. I loved it especially outside, it's a great rough water double, and comfortable. My wife was not so enthused, I think more about selling the XT than the epics performance.

We'll unfortunately is now in 20 pieces after a rogue (not in the set) wave nailed us at Newport Beach. We have decided it's not worth the repair so are now considering a replacement.

I'd be happy with another, but on this occasions one should revist the options.

Can I get some feedback on the current crop, yes I know most are years old now, but I'd like impressions on the current build and performance, especially 'stability' for the XT, Elite, v10 And the Viva, and the stellar also?

Thanks in advance.

Northern Beaches, Australia.
[Fenn Swordfish, Fenn Spark, Carbonology Zest Double
Pain is temporary, glory can be even less so...

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5 years 6 months ago #23235 by Simon Haywood
Replied by Simon Haywood on topic Double Ski choice
I am selling Stellar S2E (high volume) what might as well be a brand new one - been in the water less than 1.5 hrs been paddling twice in it...Change of direction and focus for me - so it's for sale (Perth).
www.geartrade.com.au/page-31605.html

Previous craft: Affinity, Endorfinn, Multisport, Epic V8, V10sport, V10, V12, Fenn Swordfish, Spirit PRS Elite; Stellar S18S, SR, SE, SEL, S2E, S2EL

Current Skis:
Huki S1-R
Stellar S18S - Excel
Stellar SR - Ultra


Skis on order: None!

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5 years 6 months ago - 5 years 6 months ago #23236 by Kneewall49
Replied by Kneewall49 on topic Double Ski choice
I hear that Carbonology are about to release a Zest double, to accompany the existing Blast double. There are photos on their facebook page.

I know from experience the carbonology, I find, the most comfortable boat (seating) for me. I'll wait to try one of these, I know Garry Bilton moves his Blast double very well in WA.

Btw, thanks Simon for the heads up on your stellar.

Northern Beaches, Australia.
[Fenn Swordfish, Fenn Spark, Carbonology Zest Double
Pain is temporary, glory can be even less so...

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5 years 6 months ago #23239 by Davidw
Replied by Davidw on topic Double Ski choice
The Zest double is already in production I think. I am looking at a double ski for my wife and myself. We are currently wobbling around in an old Mark 2 but would like something a bit easier to use.

I find the XT double a bit of a barge and because the seat causes me to slouch I get a sore back after an hour or so. It's also steers like a bit of a dog in a good downwind. But the stability is bulletproof.

We are comfortable in an Elite double up to about 15 knots. It's fast and steers much better downwind.The stability is much better than the Mark 2 but not near the XT.

Hein from Carbonology reckons the new Zest double sits between the Elite and the XT in stability and because he can therefore paddle harder in the big stuff it keeps up with an Elite. He also says it tracks much better angles downwind than the others. With less volume it's a bit wetter but apparently drains really well like the other Carbonology boats.

He is possibly bringing one down to CT for a few days from 3 Feb so I'm hoping to take it for a paddle then.

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5 years 6 months ago #23240 by Kneewall49
Replied by Kneewall49 on topic Double Ski choice
David, yes your description is what i imagine is the case with the XT and Elite, that's why I'm interested in the Zest double. I definitely think it's worth waiting for to trial. I will look forward to your report if you can get a ride on feb 3.

Northern Beaches, Australia.
[Fenn Swordfish, Fenn Spark, Carbonology Zest Double
Pain is temporary, glory can be even less so...

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5 years 6 months ago #23243 by robin.mousley
Replied by robin.mousley on topic Double Ski choice
Hein van Rooyen is bringing the Carbonology Zest Double to Cape Town to do some demos and we have a date to paddle it together.

I have an Epic V10 Double and really like it, so it'll be interesting to compare and contrast.

I love my Zest single!

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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5 years 6 months ago #23248 by Kneewall49
Replied by Kneewall49 on topic Double Ski choice
Robin, I look forward to your impressions, particularly with your experience on the other doubles.
Neil

Northern Beaches, Australia.
[Fenn Swordfish, Fenn Spark, Carbonology Zest Double
Pain is temporary, glory can be even less so...

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5 years 6 months ago #23259 by Rookie
Replied by Rookie on topic Double Ski choice
Wow loved reviewing this topic and at the same time marveling at how the market has changed in the last three years B)

In SA the range of skis has dramatically improved as you now have:
FENN: XT and Elite
Carbonology: Zest and Blast
Knysna Racing: CLK
Custom Kayaks now Point Fibreglass: Apex 2 and Speed 2
Epic: V10
Kayak Centre: Vision

AND I am sure that I have forgotten a few - pretty awesome list anyway!! :)
So you really have to get out there and beg / borrow / steal a few before you settle on any one ski.
Questions to ask:
Am I comfortable and then is my partner comfortable?
The conditions we want to paddle in? SAFETY FIRST - you can always paddle faster than you can swim
Are beginners going to paddle this ski or only experienced paddlers?
Can I sneak another ski past my partner :evil:

Mostly enjoy - get out there and paddle a few.

Focus, Apex 2, Zeplin

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5 years 6 months ago #23261 by Kneewall49
Replied by Kneewall49 on topic Double Ski choice
Rookie,

Here in Sydney we don't have the same luxury of choice. We can access only the XT, Elite, V10 and 2 Stella's. And Carbonology's former Viva (I think it was called).

There are a few Red 7 doubles still afloat, haven't seen a Custom double for yonks.

And the Australian surf ski manufactures stil stick to manufacturing surf sprint boats, seemingly pretending the ocean ski trend is just a fad?

Northern Beaches, Australia.
[Fenn Swordfish, Fenn Spark, Carbonology Zest Double
Pain is temporary, glory can be even less so...

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5 years 6 months ago #23262 by Bermy
Replied by Bermy on topic Double Ski choice
Only experiences I have in a double is in the Mark 2, XT double and the Stellar. Stellar is amazing fun and comfortable. Based on that I have a Stellar double on order arriving in the next 2 days - a Yellow one - we all know a yellow Lambo is faster than a white one.... so it must be fast B)

Simmo - what's the new path you're on?

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5 years 6 months ago #23266 by Rookie
Replied by Rookie on topic Double Ski choice
Hi, sorry to hear about your limited options in Sydney,

The 'good' news is that Mark is currently building SPEED 2 for your market but where they will end up in Australia is anyone's guess.

The big problem is that one can read all the comments one can find on a ski but until you have paddled it you really don't know if it is the one for you.

I have attached photos of the SPEED 2 so that you can see the basic shape as it is getting rave reviews in Durban (SA) where it has been released. so it may be worth the wait if you are thinking about it. But personally I would never buy a ski i had not paddled for at least an hour

Focus, Apex 2, Zeplin
Attachments:

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5 years 6 months ago - 5 years 4 months ago #23267 by Kneewall49
Replied by Kneewall49 on topic Double Ski choice
Don't worry, there are plenty of things I wouldn't buy without trying out first, and very well, included is an ocean ski!

I'm not familiar with that brand, Mark or Speed? Will have to catch up on the reviews.

I'm not fussed with resale value over fit for purpose, but as far as doubles go Epic certainly have the resale value tied up, their doubles resell very quickly. I think this is due in the main part to Epic's very visable branding.

Northern Beaches, Australia.
[Fenn Swordfish, Fenn Spark, Carbonology Zest Double
Pain is temporary, glory can be even less so...
The following user(s) said Thank You: Rookie

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5 years 6 months ago #23268 by portmanm
Replied by portmanm on topic Double Ski choice
My first year of paddling my wife and I tried a Epic Double Ultra layup - we were a jiggling mess. After 3 years we decided to give it another shot and tried Epic Double Ultra and were lucky to spend some time in an Elite layup, beautiful piece of kit. Surprise surprise it was all ok and had fun on the flat and in the ocean (<1m swell & 10knots). We're intermediate paddlers so Fenn Elite and Carbonology was off the list. The wife paddles a Stellar SEI Excel layup so we decided to give a Stellar S2E Excel layup a test, it's a winner & now in the garage. No big downwinds yet, we're double novices but its opened up options my wife wouldn't necessarily get to do. You look at the specs for Epic Ultra and Stellar Excel, same weight and dimensions, my wife reckons more stable for her in the Stellar in the back, I find it a little more twitchy in the front but overall ok (I typically paddle new Epic V10 Elite). Epic cockpit gear a little more refined than Stellar but Stellar was $1300 AUD cheaper overall. I've seen how other less experienced people gain confidence after paddling in a double with a more experienced person, so hope my wife and other friends get to enjoy new adventures & I hope get someone with lots of double experience in the front so I can learn a few things. Will give another update in 1 year.

Bio
- 90kg, 183cm, paddling 90+% in ocean conditions for 5 years. Prefer downwind.
- Epic V12 1G, V10 1G/2G, V10 Sport, V8 & V8 Pro
- Stellar SEI 1G/2G, SES 1G/2G, SEL 2G, SR 2G & S2E
- Vadja Hawx 43/46/52
- Think Evo II 2G, Ion 1G
- Fenn Elite S, Swordfish S
- Nelo 560M
The following user(s) said Thank You: Rookie, Kneewall49

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5 years 6 months ago #23281 by peekfys
Replied by peekfys on topic Double Ski choice
I have had the privilege to spend the last two and a half weeks in PE and had the opportunity to get behind the scenes in the making of the Carbonology skis, starting with the third Zest double ever made which is the ski going to Cape Town next week. I have also paddled it together with Hein a number of times, starting with a time trial where we finished second just a boat length after the winners. To me this was amazing considering this was my second time ever in a double and me being an average paddler. I was 100% comfortable and relaxed although strong wind and lack of experience. Paddling into the wind the four kilometers to the buoy was surprisingly easy and I could keep good technique and power in my strokes. On the way back my lack of experience shined through and I missed a few strokes too much when I couldn´t keep synchronized. The ski behaved perfect in the waves and Hein could turn really fast to catch us some really nice runs. The low sides made it quite a wet ride, but the water drained off really fast so there was no extra weight to be carried. I normally paddle a Zest single in which I find the seat too wide. The double Zest has the same seat but here it felt great due to better stability in the double compared to the single. We have also had a lot of fun catching waves and surfing in this ski which has been a pure joy and always felt safe pushing the limits with waves breaking right behind my shoulders.

Last but not least I have got to understand the reasons behind the well known quality of the CS skis. Hein and Jason knows all there is to know about composites, they supervise the building process of each ski and nothing leaves their factory with out their approval. The fact that CS skis are known for good quality is not a coincidences!

I hope you all get a chance to test the Zest double!

Ps When it comes to single skis I have high expectations in the new Vault which will be a low volume version of the Zest with a smaller seat more suitable for us smaller guys (<75 kg ?). I have seen the prototype developing, tested the seat and it all looks and feels great. Unfortunately I just missed the chance to see it float and test it. “Rumors” says it behaves as wanted and soon will be in production. Ds

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5 years 6 months ago #23282 by Rookie
Replied by Rookie on topic Double Ski choice
Hi Peekfys,

Thank you for you feedback - it was great to read. I have put my name down to demo the SPEED 2 when it reaches Cape Town.

It will be interesting to see how the new generation ski's fair i.t.o weight, stability, comfort.

Focus, Apex 2, Zeplin

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5 years 5 months ago #23488 by Rookie
Replied by Rookie on topic Double Ski choice
SPEED 2:
I have had the pleasure of having this ski to demo for the last week. Unfortunately I have not been able to escape work when the wind did blow so this review is written after spending just over 3 hours in the boat in flat conditions – although I would have jumped at the chance to take it down wind.
For the record I am 6’2 weigh 93kgs and have a size 36 waist. My partner is a slender 5’6 female. I paddle once a week if I am lucky and 2 times on exceptional weeks. My partner paddles once a week.
We tested the standard glass version but there are two lighter versions on offer.
First impressions:
Ever walked past an elite paddlers ski and thought – how on earth do they stay in that? Well welcome to the double version of that feeling. It is sleek with a sharp nose leading in to a narrow catch in the front – it is intimidating. Add to it the fact that for the FIRST time that I have seen the ski narrows for the back paddlers catch area – this ski is sleek.
A friend remarked when she saw it for the first time that it should have had a ladies name with all those curves.
Add to that high side walls and you have quite an intimidating ski. This is definitely not for the faint hearted.
And the million dollar question “IF WE FALL OUT – HOW ON EARTH WILL WE GET BACK IN” was certainly on my mind.
So my partner and I set off for the first hour of paddling. She drove for the first time ever in the double that we were testing for the first time. There were only small/tiny runs coming in to the bay so all we could do was paddle out and try and catch those. Our first impression was that the ski was very twitchy and we often had to brace but as we got used to it we learned to rely on the secondary stability and our paddling improved dramatically. I would have to say it is FAST it caught runs that we could not catch on my current ski. Secondly my partner and I were soon able to lean in to turn the ski and she was able to pick and choose her direction even on the tiny runs. Our acceleration from standing was also much better in this ski.
After that I paddled with two newbies who were both VERY concerned about falling out and not being able to get back in so I stuck close to shore and caught waves – lots of fun and no we did not fall out once. Again the acceleration from standing to catching waves was very noticeable compared to my current ski and it is more manoverable on the wave than my current ski. Even with novices in the back I was able to go left and then right just by leaning – lots of fun!
Really Like about this ski.
• It is fast – did I mention that
• Everybody that paddled it remarked on the good idea of the narrow catch for front and back paddler
• The snug fit
• The high walls - as a back paddler one often gets swamped. I think that that is less likely in this boat. The synergy also had high sides and it was the driest ski I paddled.
• The very simple foot adjustment – no tools,no fuss. Everyone could get comfortable in less than a minute
Not so sure.
• Odd plugs that can close the bailers if you want to – I understand if you race flat water or in freezing conditions then great but for me no thanks.
• Not everyone can fit in. One of the newbies commented that he could not last for long in such a narrow seat
• There are no handles on this ski - personally I like a handle at the back of the ski.
• There are no bullets, the ski empties within 40 strokes from 93kg full bucket so it works well but still a racing snake ski should have bullets.
CAN YOU GET BACK IN:
My partner and I fell out going through the surf and got back in just fine. Secondly I tested it during the second session because it was such a big concern.
YES – one can get back in. I found it very easy as the back paddler. I fell out and got back in 3 times to make sure – it really is easy. The front paddler takes a little more experimenting. At first I went with the traditional hold on the foot strap but that left me too far forward when it came to dropping my bum in the seat. Then I tried holding half way down the cockpit and my bum was in the right place to simply drop down and start paddling – neat.
Final verdict:
I would never buy a ski without doing a downwind it because of my experience in a previous double that was fine on the flat but we could not get it to stop broaching no matter what we tried when we demo’ed it. So I will post once I have managed to do that. BUT as it stands it certainly is on my list of skis worth buying and I have certainly started saving for the lighter version.

Focus, Apex 2, Zeplin
The following user(s) said Thank You: Hansie

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5 years 5 months ago #23530 by Kneewall49
Replied by Kneewall49 on topic Double Ski choice
Any update on the Zest double trials?

Northern Beaches, Australia.
[Fenn Swordfish, Fenn Spark, Carbonology Zest Double
Pain is temporary, glory can be even less so...

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5 years 5 months ago #23540 by Davidw
Replied by Davidw on topic Double Ski choice
Sorry Kneewall, I didn't get to paddle it as planned. Work got in the way. I'm sure Mr. Mousley had a paddle in it though. What did you think Rob?

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5 years 5 months ago #23545 by Kneewall49
Replied by Kneewall49 on topic Double Ski choice
While waiting till the Zest gets to Oz, we borrowed the demo Blast for a go.

Our impressions over a short 'fitting' paddle was that it was very stable, very comfortable and felt fast. I didn't have the GPS so can't confirm speed, but it was very quiet through the water and accelerated nicely.

This boat has been in Malcolmn's demo fleet for some time and has been raced a lot. It was in good condition given the various paddlers that have used it, and it's age. I'm not sure if there are any other Carbonolgy doubles apart from this one in sydney. Gary races won in WA in all the big events doing well of course with his wife back seating.

The other very noticeable difference with the Blast double compared to the Epic and Xt is the very high cockpit sides. I think it would be a reasonably dry boat, but it certainly would hold a very lot of water if filled. However the cockpit drained quickly from a standing start, but that was with minimal water of course. Could be a slow getaway through the break if you copped one in the chest early on while going out.

Didn't get a chance to check turning radius but from memory steering issues were non evident.

We'll use it in the squad training session tomorrow, but we both have been off solid training for a while so true performance will not be judged easily.

Northern Beaches, Australia.
[Fenn Swordfish, Fenn Spark, Carbonology Zest Double
Pain is temporary, glory can be even less so...

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