New paddler with Point65N Bourbon Orca

9 years 3 months ago #13421 by dkjens
Hello. I'm a 48 year old kid who just started paddling this spring (2012). I bought a Point65N XP18 kayak (my first kayak ever and having never been in a kayak) and was curious as to how stable I would feel in it. It came out that this kayak is very stable and have no problem feeling very comfortable in it. I wanted something else or other kind of kayak so I found a great deal on a Point65N Bourbon Orca Xtralight. I have been out in it about 5-6 times now and I don't know if I should stick with it or look for something else. I have no problem paddling it in calm waters but in choppy waters or with some waves I find myself bracing with the paddle all the time to avoid a swim. I would like some feedback from people with much more experience with surfskis than I about how stable is the Bourbon Orca compared to other surfski. Should I give it more time and expect my balance skills to improve vastly or should I move to something more stable. Thanks for your input, positive or negative.

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9 years 3 months ago #13425 by robin.mousley
I've asked Paul Rosenquist in Sweden - he's paddled a bunch of different skis including the Bourbon Orca. I'll post his reply.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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9 years 3 months ago #13428 by dkjens
Thank you. I am actually in Sweden, about 250km north of Stockholm and yes, the wetsuit is already in use.

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9 years 3 months ago #13747 by dkjens

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8 years 11 months ago #15358 by slim white
Everybody agree that the stability of the bourbon orca in waves is excellent, one of the best. The x bow is perfect for maintain the bow over the wave and the rough weather is its natural element.I am going to receive mine in white and red with the new peddle system.
Construction very solid, very nice design lighting fast and very good initial and secondary stability. Take off water in seconds and the seat remains dry all the time.
My stable with the Tahe wind 585 and the Bourbon Orca is ready for the Great National of the Sea kayaks and surfski hahahaha.

When you get what you want you don´t want what you get

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8 years 11 months ago #15364 by zachhandler
Dkjens- you are very new at this. Your balance will continue to improve year after year if you keep at it. I think it would make the most sense to hold on to the bourbon orca and give yourself time to grow into it. My paddling partners couldn't balance an elite level boat a few years ago, and now they take them in big waves.

The more you paddle the faster you will improve. There are many factors that go into mastering a new body skill. It is important not to be afraid to fall in. People who never allow themselves to fall in the water are slow to improve. The more you swim the better when you are learning. You will develop a very good remount as well.

It is not a bad idea to do short paddles, like 45 minutes, where your only goal is to swim a lot. Obviously wear a pfd and a leash, and a wetsuit if it is cold. Paddle the waves at all angles. Lean the boat. See what it takes to tip. If your remount is not good then stay close to shore when you do this. Keep in mind that it gets harder to remount as you get tired. I like to paddle back and forth along a sea wall when the waves are rebounding. It is great balance training. If it is too easy I sit on a foam pad or close my eyes and do it by feel.

Another piece of advice it to get some pointers from a skilled kayaker. There may be simple errors such as pulling the paddle back too far that make the boat more tippy. Also you should be using a wing blade not a sea kayak paddle. Wings are more stable in the water and need less bracing.

For now use the sea kayak in the rough water, assuming you know how to get back in boat if you capsize. Continue to practice in the orca. If after a couple more seasons it still seems you will never master the orca, then sell it.

Thats my advice. Good luck!

Current Skis: Kai Wa’a Vega, Nelo 550L g2, Epic V12 g2, Carbonology Feather, Think Jet, Knysna Sonic X

Former Skis: Epic V12 g2, Epic V12 g1, Epic v10 double, Fenn Elite S, Custom Kayaks Synergy

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8 years 11 months ago #15367 by slim white
My friendly advise. Paddle, Paddle and paddle with the Bourbon Orca in flat water and progressively take moving water for a short while. ONLY FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. Then follow in flat water.
My system is learn to paddle without fall in water, finally is what the master do when they paddle.
You must be very sure in the Orca that is a very stable surfski. If you arrive to the surfski from the sea kayak you must learn high paddling and use the torso. The braces in surfski is the paddle correctly vertical, then you do not need to brace at all.When you train in flat water try to mark all paddling sectors very slowly to give muscles memorize the completed technique, torso, legs, extended arms, hips. Catch the water the far as possible with your extended arms and take of the paddle immediately passing the hips. If you paddle farther from the hips you will loose stability. Paddle slowly remembering all sections of the correct technique.

When you get what you want you don´t want what you get

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8 years 11 months ago #15369 by na guardia
Dear friend White, I'm waiting your comments about the Bourbon Orca. You are owner of one of the most beautiful and mistery ski of the world. Bad sales but very very good impressions, problems of the trade!!!!
One salute!

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8 years 11 months ago #15372 by slim white
Miguel Angel you are following my adventures over the world.hahaha I am very, very anxious to receive my Bourbon Orca, probably next week and then to dissipate all doubts that you know.
I have enough good information to think that I have choose this surfsky properly.
Fryda has start a joint venture with Brito for 2013 and the lines of her kayak follows the design of the Bourbon Orca.
Un fuerte abrazo, José Luis

When you get what you want you don´t want what you get

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8 years 11 months ago - 8 years 11 months ago #15396 by duncangroenewald
As surfski's go the Bourbon Orca is advanced in terms of stability. As a rough guide here is where I would position it in comparison to other ski's.

BEGINNER (width around 53cm or more)
- EPIC V8 (w:56cm)
- Point65N XP18 Spyder (w:54cm)
- Fenn Bluefin (w:53cm)
- Vajda Oscar (w:53cm)

INTERMEDIATE (width around 48cm)
- Flow Kayaks SuperStar (w: 49cm)
- EPIC V10 Sport (w:48.5cm)
- Fenn XT (w:48cm)
- Think Evo II (w:48cm)
- Fenn Swordfish (w:45)

ADVANCED (width around 43 cm slightly flatter hull shape)
- Bourbon Orca (w:45cm)
- Vajda Hawxs (w: 43.5cm not paddled myself yet)
- Vajda Orca (w:42cm)
- Think Uno Max (w:43cm)

ELITE (width around 43 cm rounder hull shape)
- Fenn Elite (w:43cm)
- Fenn Elite SL (w:42.5cm)
- Flow Kayaks SharpSki (w: 43 cm)


Note this is just my guide based on boats I have first hand experience with - your individual mileage may vary but if you are finding the Bourbon Orca difficult in the chop then your best bet would be the type of boats in my intermediate category. Look for something around 48cm wide.

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8 years 11 months ago #15403 by na guardia
Zachhandler Hello, I found very interesting your comment specifying surfski different models according to their width and stability. Bourbon Orca probably not specific for initiation, ie require a longer time for full control especially in waves. One question I wanted to ask you, do you think there is much difference in speed between the stable initiation (Blue Fin, Guru, KRK RS) and the ancient initiation (XT, Evo) or simply maintaining stability enhancement similar speeds.
thanks

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8 years 11 months ago #15415 by slim white
Hello Duncangroenewald A very awesome detailed information comparing the stability of the most popular surfskis that we all appreciate so much.
Only a question, to be sure of the pondered review: Did you check personally every model of surfski? Only I find, upon only in the opinion of my colleges, that the stability of the Bourbon is over its measures.It seems that the stability of this ski is a nice surprise,with a width only of 44,8 but better stability than a Fenn xt or evo ,they said. ?¿?¿?¿ In flat water this, and in choppy much better. What do you think? Your answer will be very much appreciated.

When you get what you want you don´t want what you get

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8 years 11 months ago #15420 by JML
Having had one of the only Bourbon Orcas to hit Australia I must say that the stability, particularly in rougher conditions would be in the Evo II range rather than the more top end skis. There were some manufacturing problems with the initial offering and we are eagerly awaiting the replacement model. If the manufacturing problems have been sorted, it should be an interesting addition to the range of surf skis available.
Happy to comment further when the replacement arrives, which I must say has been a long time coming. More info on the Bourbon Orca can be found on our web site. www.fitnesspaddlers.com.au

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8 years 11 months ago #15421 by duncangroenewald
Yes I have paddled them all except the Hawx but mostly in bay conditions (waves < 1m). Initially I was surprised at the stability of the Bourbon Orca myself, but its mainly primary stability because of the flat bottom. The others you refer to have slightly rounded bottoms so they would feel a bit more tippy initially (less primary stability). In bigger surf out at sea my experience is the wider boats always offer greater stability simply because secondary stability plays a much bigger part.

BTW I though the Bourbon Orca paddled like a dog on the flat - the boat did not seem to run well and seemed to exhibit high drag at my average racing speed of around 11 - 13kph. I did substantially slower time than with my EPIC V12 for the same course in much the same conditions. Now this is not exactly surprising as you usually have to pay for higher primary stability somehow... Also the nose seemed to throw up a bit more bow wave on the flat than I had experienced with other boats which may also contribute to the higher drag.

I must a admit I did think for a moment that perhaps someone had cracked the laws of physics - but it was not to be.

Just remember - your mileage may vary from mine and these are very subjective observations - not done under lab conditions!!

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8 years 11 months ago #15423 by slim white
JML It seems that you are confirming what my friends thinks about the stability of the B.Orca, very good in flat water and specially in rough sea.
Surprisingly, despite its width (44,8 cms) this boat has a very good stability do to the special X BOW that gives special feeling sailing.
You mention some manufacturing problems in the first productions. The very bad peddle system has being changed for the epic system.
Did you detect any other problem?
It seems that Point has not interest to take of the juice of this magnificent ski.The B. Orca is not in 2013 catalogue. It is a pity because is a Surfski to star and with a long way to improve skills and even to participate seriously in competitions. If I was the Marketing Director I should not take of production this handsome this beautiful surfski.For sure.

When you get what you want you don´t want what you get

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8 years 11 months ago #15424 by slim white
Duncangroenewald thank you for you review. You have your reasons that I assume as completely worthily do to your experience.
I consider that the B.Orca is not a extreme surfski, but do to my special handicap (76 years old, in March 77) having a good stability and faster than my Tahe wind 585 I have something to have with illusion and is sooooo soooo nice that is almost a sex obsession hahahaha .
What you mention about lower speed in flat water probably is because its thick bow to elevate the boat in waves.
Could you give me your classification with respect to others SS as Fenn Xt,. Think Evo, V10 sport, etc?

When you get what you want you don´t want what you get

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8 years 11 months ago #15425 by slim white
I mean classification from the point of vie of speed.

When you get what you want you don´t want what you get

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8 years 11 months ago #15427 by slim white

I mean classification from the point of view of speed.


When you get what you want you don´t want what you get

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8 years 11 months ago #15435 by JML
The quality issues all revolved around the steering system which was changed from the specifications of the original ski. It just didn't work due to very rough footplate finish, cables that stretched when in use although that probably would rectify itself with use. too many different angle on the steering line making the whole control system very unresponsive.
I agree with Duncan that it did feel a bit of a dog in flat water, not the fastest off the the mark but much better running in the ocean swells that it was designed for.
The ski's external finish was fine but just rough where it mattered and I suspect that that is because the original footplate design, whilst it looked good on paper, would have been difficult to make work under practical conditions given the pressures the footplate comes under on a ski.

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8 years 11 months ago #15437 by duncangroenewald
I would have to do a time trial in each of them to more objectively provide a comparison, perhaps something for the next couple of months if the weather permits. But I would guess the Bourbon Orca would be a bit quicker than most of them. Perhaps I should qualify my earlier comment re it being a dog... Remember that's relative to my usual boats, the V12 Ultra, Fenn Elite or the SharpSki. My time for 10km is somewhere between 49 and 56 minutes depending on the conditions and the Bourbon Orca adds maybe 2 minutes to that. The Vajda Orca felt pretty stable as well but seemed to feel a lot faster on the water, much the same speed as the V12 in the chop but way more stable.

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