Teardrop vs parallel edge wing for flatwater

6 years 9 months ago #16643 by AR_convert

tony h wrote:
Kevin White from canoesonline.com.au in perth should have some demos for you to try.
..


Cheers, I know Kevin well through racing.

tony h wrote:
The cs3 looks similar to the gp2 / jantex gamma altho' the manufacturer explanation sounds more like B4 ..



I recall that Jantex Gamma was mentioned when I bought the CS3.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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6 years 9 months ago #16651 by kayakchampeen
Tony H thanks for the link to the gara website, the pics of the blades are better than many out there, and, since the 3 differrent blade pics are basically to scale w/one another, it's actually a very good resource for anyone curious about the differences (in planform at least) between these 3 archetypes of wings. Which are exactly as you mentioned 2=gamma, 3=nordic, 4=b4. Seems like that covers all of the bases. (until a novel design comes along) As has been mentioned many times by others, it can't be said that one of these is "better" or "faster" than another

I wish on many an occasion I had never sold my nordic. For anyone who appreciates the aesthetic beauty of an efficient form and really enjoys paddling at it's essence this is the most rewarding paddle to use.

Amazingly, these 3 three popular styles of blade all came into being by the early 1990's. Blade design has only evolved incrementally, if at all, since then. Which is crazy in this age of 3-D printers, computational fluid dynamics/CAD modeling, etc..
Is it possible that these designs can't be improved upon? or is it the case that no one has approached paddle design from a clean slate? Maybe the basis for a new forum topic altogether.!?!

Incidentally even though I'm constantly singing the praises of the VanDusen 8/Gamma, and use it for ICF whitewater racing in short lengths, I just as often reach for the F.E.S. in calmer conditions in the ski or k1 as it's so rock solid in the water and helps me hook up more with leg drive and get the most out of every stroke.
Like Tony, I do try to audition different paddles at every opportunity.
The following user(s) said Thank You: tony h

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6 years 9 months ago #16652 by LaPerouseBay

kayakchampeen wrote: Tony H thanks for the link to the gara website, the pics of the blades are better than many out there, and, since the 3 differrent blade pics are basically to scale w/one another, it's actually a very good resource for anyone curious about the differences (in planform at least) between these 3 archetypes of wings. /


Here's another website with some pics. I got a good deal on a Kajner 4, size L. It's similar to an epic mid. Thanks for all the great info guys.

www.kajner.hu/en/kayak-paddles/sprint-wi...browse&category_id=3

downwind dilettante

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6 years 9 months ago #16655 by fredrik
Does anyone market the F.E.S shape these days?

The closest I get is this link www.fes-sport.de/kanu.htm

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6 years 9 months ago #16656 by kayakchampeen
The Kajner site is also a good resource. I've heard good things about these being very comparable to Brasca but less expensive.
FES no longer manufactures the paddle they designed supposedly b/c the chief designer left to work at BracaSport (heresay from german forum DKV)
The FES shape isn't that esoteric or unusual. It looks like a hybrid of a Brasca with a Gut, in equal measure. The design is still extant in the form of the Brasca V and Kajner 3. although the differences in construction mean that a certain something is lost in the translation. The most exact copies of the FES shape around, in shape and construction, are the Watertech series from G-Power paddles of Poland, and the Schwarzer black paddel from Schwarzer paddles of Switzerland. Check out Schwarzer's newest wing offering, very interesting!

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6 years 9 months ago - 6 years 9 months ago #16660 by Edge540
kayakchampeen
You guessed it correctly. It's me Ludo :)

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6 years 9 months ago #16662 by AR_convert

Stew wrote: Everyone is different in terms of strength, technique, boat type etc etc. All gets down to what you like the feel of, and what works for you.


I'm surprised you havent mentioned the Vaaka Cadence Sensor Stew.

After reading your blog on it I agree that it would be a great way of not only comparing one paddle to another for a given speed and heart rate but also to compare one ski against another for a given cadence and heart rate. Just adds to the controlable variables which helps to be more scientific about how we rate changes to our paddling "set-up".

I have added one to my wish list now ;)

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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6 years 9 months ago - 6 years 9 months ago #16669 by ccchappell
I actually have one of the Vaaka Cadence sensors, works great. Been testing out with my Braca 4max, Braca 7max and Gamma Med+ on flatwater in my Mohican. So far generally confirms the comments in this thread in my opinion - speed vs cadence and associated effort. Need more data, but so far for me I have to keep the Gamma over 80 spm (sensor reads full strokes, so 40 on the 310XT) to get "decent" speed. Once drops into 70s the speed seems to drop off faster then other paddles. Gamma definitely fast when 80 or over, and fast acceleration from start. Braca 4 overall "faster" with slightly lower cadence (have a new Braca4 ultralight on the way). Hi 70s can keep similar speed to the Gamma at 80, but not sure if top end speed as fast? Also Braca 4 not as easy to accelerate for me, but can paddle all day long with it at a nice rate. Braca 7 is my favorite for both speed and acceleration but is tough on my 50 year old body... Firm catch tough on my elbows and shoulders but sure can get it to accelerate fast when ever needed. Blade is so "planted" through out the stroke - great in my ICF boats since adds nice stability.

Obviously need more data to, just wanted to share my early thoughts. And yes I like to collect paddles!! (also have a Braca 6min that is a beast, and wife uses ONNO small.mid and son has Epic mid).

Will put together a review once I get some time :)

Here is my Garmin track with the 7max from last weekend.
connect.garmin.com/activity/308126739

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6 years 9 months ago #16670 by AR_convert

ccchappell wrote:
Will put together a review once I get some time :)

Here is my Garmin track with the 6max from last weekend.
connect.garmin.com/activity/308126739


Solid workout, looks like you had a slight current to work against on the way home. Yes would be interested to read your observations on paddle cadence for a given speed and HR for each of your paddles.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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6 years 9 months ago #16673 by Stew

AR_convert wrote:

Stew wrote: Everyone is different in terms of strength, technique, boat type etc etc. All gets down to what you like the feel of, and what works for you.


I'm surprised you havent mentioned the Vaaka Cadence Sensor Stew.

After reading your blog on it I agree that it would be a great way of not only comparing one paddle to another for a given speed and heart rate but also to compare one ski against another for a given cadence and heart rate. Just adds to the controlable variables which helps to be more scientific about how we rate changes to our paddling "set-up".

I have added one to my wish list now ;)


I'm sometimes hesitant to mention items I sell as some members get a tad upset by it and go on the attack. But yes, the Vaaka is an awesome tool for working out ideal stroke rates, paddle shapes and skis to suit you.

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6 years 9 months ago - 6 years 9 months ago #16677 by Kayaker Greg

ccchappell wrote: I actually have one of the Vaaka Cadence sensors, works great. Been testing out with my Braca 4max, Braca 7max and Gamma Med+ on flatwater in my Mohican. So far generally confirms the comments in this thread in my opinion - speed vs cadence and associated effort. Need more data, but so far for me I have to keep the Gamma over 80 spm (sensor reads full strokes, so 40 on the 310XT) to get "decent" speed. Once drops into 70s the speed seems to drop off faster then other paddles. Gamma definitely fast when 80 or over, and fast acceleration from start. Braca 4 overall "faster" with slightly lower cadence (have a new Braca4 ultralight on the way). Hi 70s can keep similar speed to the Gamma at 80, but not sure if top end speed as fast? Also Braca 4 not as easy to accelerate for me, but can paddle all day long with it at a nice rate. Braca 7 is my favorite for both speed and acceleration but is tough on my 50 year old body... Firm catch tough on my elbows and shoulders but sure can get it to accelerate fast when ever needed. Blade is so "planted" through out the stroke - great in my ICF boats since adds nice stability.

Obviously need more data to, just wanted to share my early thoughts. And yes I like to collect paddles!! (also have a Braca 6min that is a beast, and wife uses ONNO small.mid and son has Epic mid).

Will put together a review once I get some time :)

Here is my Garmin track with the 7max from last weekend.
connect.garmin.com/activity/308126739


Thanks for sharing your Garmin track but I have a couple of questions, why do you use such big paddles? Especially as they are hard on your elbows and shoulders? And with such big paddles and the high cadence the average speed seems low? Do you have a short choppy stroke? Please don't take this the wrong way but the numbers don't add up for me. I'm no great paddler (poor actually and I'm 50 as well) but typically with an Epic small mid and a lower cadence of 34dsm I see higher averages.

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6 years 9 months ago #16678 by ccchappell
Hi Kayaker Greg, no worries...didn't take the wrong way :)

Actually the only paddle that can stress my elbow/shoulder if I go really hard is the Braca 7Max, which is not a big blade (think same surface area as an epic small, 735cm2, but that is only part of the story as we know). I'll rely on Kayakchampeens description earlier in thread of how the 7Max has such a strong catch - I really can't explain. The Braca 4 and Gamma I can paddle all day long with no issues. This is definitely a quirk in my "needs much improvement stroke", so should not be taken as the the 7 is hard on everyone. :)

Guess the numbers don't lie on my cadence to speed ability, so not much to say about performance :( The workout I posted is one of my routines with a goal of working on starts with fast bursts and then maintain a cadence of 80spm (you can see this in the splits). The Garmin workout I created has 3 segments. On for .5 mile, rest to 95bpm, then go in 30 secs. Goal is over 100 at start, then maintain 80 for .5 mile set as I mentioned. (Had to add the go in 30 secs to just get ready for the next set, seems to work good for me). Also as noted by AR_convert I train in a river that has current and some wind that day. You can see where I turned and headed back up river.

I've settled in that at my size (6'3", 210 lbs) and ability, a race cadence of around 80 works pretty good for me, and if I can burst to 95/100 at the start and when need to jump on a wake with the 3 paddles I'm experimenting with, I'm doing about as good as I can for my skill. When I drop to mid 70s, which is easy to do, speed goes to heck. Found the slightly smaller blades I lost some of my speed at the same cadence (Onno small mid, Jantex med)

Interestingly, I do happen to paddle with Ted Van Dusen quite often and by no means could I quote him, but seems to sure be a balance not only between size of blade and cadence, but shape, twist, blade flex, shaft flex, drag and 'slippage" (my word, perhaps effeciency??)of the blade. Then throw in the length of the shaft!! The cadence sensor has been great to allow me to finally quantify a bit more.

The best part of this latest testing is really seeing the point were cadence to effort with different paddles makes a difference in speed. Like I mentioned, my early testing is right in line with Kayakchampeen's description of characteristics of the Gamma, where the curve of speed to cadence does not seem to be a straight line - you need to get to a certain cadence for to shine more so then some of the other blades! Just my thoughts!!

Chris

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6 years 9 months ago #16679 by nell
Has anyone had experience with the Jantex Alpha ? Looks like a parallel blade; kayakchampeen suggested it was like a Gut / Rasmussen. I'm curious how the Alpha small would compare to a blade like the Fenn 1 . .

Thanks for any input.

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6 years 9 months ago - 6 years 9 months ago #16680 by Kayaker Greg
Thanks Chris, I was hesitant to ask as often people take things the wrong way, especially over the internet, but when I have questions I find it hard to hold myself back :unsure:
Myself, I've found no difference in speed from using an Epic small mid to a mid, the only difference being the added support the mid offers in tricky conditions.

I've always had a naturally slow cadence, in recent times I've worked on uping the rating to a "high of 34dsm" lol which is what I was told to aim for! Once this is a comfortable leisurely pace, I will increase the rating further and try for about 44dsm at race pace (without the expense of technique), but for now I'm in my off season so that will be awhile before I reach that rating.

I remember the first time I used the Gamma, felt like a small mid heading out into a building breeze, yet turn around into a downwind and really felt the power and speed kick in as the rating climbed, this has all been verified by others comments and the "two gear" description makes perfect sense.

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6 years 9 months ago #16688 by latman
Here is a unique paddle that was developed by the AIS in Australia in the early noughties ... and it was terrible
Attachments:

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6 years 9 months ago #16689 by Kayaker Greg
What the :pinch: ? Lol!

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6 years 9 months ago #16733 by sAsLEX
Any good books/videos on stroke technique with these paddles?

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6 years 9 months ago #16757 by latman
I have heard "the forward stroke" by Greg Barton mentioned a few times

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6 years 8 months ago #17073 by GlenRusky
Hey Tony H, what would your suggestions be on the Gara paddle shafts? I see there are a few options and was wondering what your choice/experience is with them?
Thanks in advance!

Current Ski: Nelo 550 ML (4 WWR)
Previous Skis: Fenn Spark - carbon, Vajda Hawx elite, Fenn Swordfish - carbon, Fenn Elite - carbon

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6 years 8 months ago #17074 by Draftbuster
Maybe I've missed it? But where do all the Australian made paddles fit in? I used to see heaps of Benett paddles around. Now I see Meek paddles at the races. Clint Robinson and I've seen Kenny Wallace paddle with a Performance paddle.
Are these paddles morphed off the Euro/American/south African paddles?
Or are they Australian designs for Australian surf conditions?

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