How aggressive is TOO aggressive?

8 years 4 months ago #17673 by robin.mousley
So - I just watched the recorded video of the doubles demo race at the ICF Ocean Racing World Championships.

Jasper and Nikki Mocke were leading as the boats approached the finish and were challenged by Tim Jacobs and Michele Eray.

Jasper steered in such a way as to ride the other boat off the straight line to the finish, closing close enough that paddles clashed. TJ and Michele fell back and Jasper and Nikki crossed the line first. They were subsequently DQ'ed and first place awarded to Jacobs and Eray.

Here's the video. If you start watching from 3hrs 4min, you can see the whole drama.

So the question is - is that too aggressive? What do you think? Was the DQ justified?


Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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8 years 4 months ago #17674 by AndyN
Replied by AndyN on topic How aggressive is TOO aggressive?
Interesting one.... initial reaction without having seen the vid would be no all's fair in paddling and hope ski racing isn't going down the ICF marathon racing rules debacle! But having watched it i think the DQ is justified.
Considering how far back TJ and Michele had come from and how fast a charge they were on the only way Jasper and Nikki were going to stop them getting through was to park the bus in front of them.

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8 years 4 months ago #17675 by oceana
Correct ruling to disqualify Jasper and Nikki. Jasper continually altered his line to prevent TJ and Michelle from coming past. He altered his line to the extent that TJ was nearly unable to get into the finish "chute" (the position where the red buoys were placed), and he essentially blocked them from any possible opportunity to overtake. Way to "aggressive", and clearly outside the rules.

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8 years 4 months ago #17676 by AR_convert
Anyone who has been following the ICF marathon rule changes could see this coming. You must race for the line once you round the turn marker. Its not until you see the chute you realise it appears Jasper was trying to impeded their entry in to the chute by aiming for the right side when he was on the left side of the two boats.

If its good enough for cycling its good enough for paddling I think.

Always looking for the next boat :)

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8 years 4 months ago #17678 by Love2ski
The dsq was fair in my view. I think the heat of the battle impaired good judgement.

The reaction of Jacobs turning his back says it all.

Personally I don't like the idea of the sport going the way of sailing with lots of bad behaviour, rules and bad blood.

Having said that I was wondering whether the countries would employ tactics similar to those in cycling to support a key paddler to victory.

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8 years 4 months ago #17681 by jamii
Replied by jamii on topic How aggressive is TOO aggressive?
Watching the video, it does look like the is an indirect line taken by Japs for the finish....yet he still finishes within the buoys and does not force TJ into them. Surfski ocean paddling is different for canoe as there is influence of waves/runs giving advantage or interfering to a paddler line i.e. causing a broach, thus Jasper could argue that he was using them accordingly and TJ was impeding the waves natural line. Had the waves been bigger and breaking then the finish would have been different.

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8 years 4 months ago #17682 by Fuyang Guy
Rob,
Do you kno which rule Jap's is deemed to have breached.
26.2 or 31.1 (I'm assuming here that the ICF's Canoe Ocean Racing competition rules apply)

Of note is that 26.1 states that 'international navigational rules will apply'

international navigation rules state:
Rule 13 - Overtaking

(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules [of Part B, Sections I and II | 4 through 18], any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.

So in terms of that Jap's can pick any line he wants, and the onus on the is the overtaking boat to avoid collision.
TJ did not do this.
So who is in the wrong?

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8 years 4 months ago #17683 by Love2ski
I think the rule should be that the boat being overtaken must not deliberately alter course to impede or block the overtaking boat.

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8 years 4 months ago #17684 by Fuyang Guy
I think that is probably implied, however the rules of navigation were not designed for surfski racing, and implied and should be should hold no water.
Also as Jamii mentioned above, no one goes in a straight line when racing surfski's to start with.
Honestly, I would have done the same thing.
To me Jap's chose the line that offered him best advantage. He was not zig zagging.
It is after all racing, and people are in it to win it.
It's not like Michelle E gave Michelle B any water on the can when Michelle B was turning after going the wrong way

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8 years 4 months ago #17685 by Mako
Overtaking boat must keep clear. Overtaken boat must maintain course. Overtaken boat may speed up but not alter course other than following a course it is restricted to (Shallows, marker bouys, restricted water natural obstacles or floating hazards. Boat can swerve about on runs and other as much as it likes 'until it's being overtaken'when rules apply.
If TJ was simply riding 1st wave then he must allow Japs to maneuver on runs etc. but TJ was overtaking.
The overtaking boat also needs to hold it's course until it has passed the overtaken boat before it can deviate.

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8 years 4 months ago #17686 by Kayaker Greg
DQ justified, surprised there wasn't a bloody nose after that display of poor sportsmanship. :P

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8 years 4 months ago #17689 by Love2ski
Greg, you said what I was thinking but didn't say.

I spent years racing j24 one design yachts. The endless exploitation of the rules and bad sportsmanship made it crap in the end.

Surfski racing has all the thrills of yachting without the nasty stuff and bs. I hope that doesn't change.

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8 years 4 months ago #17690 by FatPaddler
That was like watching the Boks play rugby... aggressive, skillful, but just a tad too dirty for anyone's liking.... ;)

FatPaddler.com - Paddling the world's best waterwa.... hey! Sausages!!

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8 years 4 months ago #17691 by Love2ski
Robin,

What is your view?

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8 years 4 months ago #17692 by robin.mousley
Phew. I've seen this before - pretty funny at the time, because it didn't affect the overall result. Dubai Shamaal a couple of years ago: Oscar Chalupsky surged for the finish but was ridden off the line by... his brother, Herman!

I've often got in the way of other people when riding runs - inadvertently. You chase a run and you manoeuvre to stay on it.

This was different of course - flat water and clearly deliberate.

My opinion is that it would have been nice to the paddlers going hell for leather on the shortest line to the buoy and not physically getting tangled up.

From a technical point of view, presumably someone made a protest and the rules were applied so I can't really comment on the validity of the DQ. But from the point of view of fairness and good sportsmanship, etc, I've got to say that in my opinion the DQ was justified.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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8 years 4 months ago #17693 by PaddleFaster
Honestly, my view is that it was a bush league move that severely lacked sportsmanship.

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8 years 4 months ago #17695 by jamii
Replied by jamii on topic How aggressive is TOO aggressive?
Just adding to the discussion, re the over taking rule and interpretations.
Japs/Nikki rounded the outside turning buoy first and took the inside line from TJ/Mich who had decided to push outside of them to yielded their (earlier) inside line advantage...& I believe TJ made a mistake, but it did appear that the wider line was faster due to the waves assistance....so Japs then adjusted accordingly.

Thereafter there appears two occasions where the lead ski is interfered with their stroke cadence and that would mean the 'overtaking' ski is at fault by causing a "collision" and not adhering to the passing rule of going wider.

Tricky rules to enforce if there was any infringement prior to this... as the direct line normally would be considered that shortest but this is ocean racing & will need clearer rules for waves & such influence.
Instances as 'around the can' racing, waves can drastically change the result with lost crafts causing obstruction,paddlers being caught in the impact zone or back marker catching a bomb to make up lost ground etc... it's considered part of the sport.
Much like the previous day Mich didn't need to yield her tight turn at the outer buoy and closed off Michelle Burn who was "leading" until her mistake....hence Jasper did much the same in nullifying the TJ attack although going wide but still within the demarcation of the finishing chute & clear of forcing them into an collision into the finish buoys.
My opinion is Jasper and Nikki did not deserve a DQ, if anything maybe given a time penalty.... which would have still allowed them a result.

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8 years 4 months ago - 8 years 4 months ago #17696 by Kocho
Interesting... I suppose, it is all in the rules (and I don't know them for a situation like that). I've had cases like this on the few races I've done. There, someone overly aggressive as passing me, barely, and just cut me off and kept doing so even though there was no good reason - the beginning of a 20 mile race, wide lines so no rush to get toa buoy etc.

So my personal opinion - cutting off like this should be against the rules. My feeling - bad sportsmanship.

The rules? Who knows... It is one thing to zig-zag to prevent someone from overtaking you. Most moving sports allow that. This is fine, IMO, especially if it is done to maintain the best line for you, the leader. Doing it just to block is borderline, but still OK if it is not pushing the overtaker off the course.

In this race, however, it was the equivalent of pushing the car *next to you* off the road. The skis were already lined-up, so at this point any collision should be avoided and if one causes it they should be punished. Disqualified? Perhaps a technical penalty of say 1 minute? I don't know how much is fair, but winning the race by pushing someone off the road certainly would not have been.

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8 years 4 months ago #17697 by stuartknaggs
OK, here is my take. Firstly, the organisers must take some blame here. A chute is not applicable at the finish of a surfski race. Can you imagine the mahem if there was any surf that day?

Secondly, they were both on the same wave as they aproached the chute. Who is going to second-guess Jasper on which line was best at that point?

Third, overtaking boat stays clear - how difficult is this to understand?

Fourth, there is nothing in the surfski rules governing bouy rounding, finish aproaches or any other similar aspect. I know, I wrote them. I assume they are using 26.2 as a basis for DQ but I find this very tenouous. Read the rules before you comment otherwise.

Fifth, it is in the nature of surfski racing to use features of teh course to assist you, whether they are sewlls, rocks, bouys or other competitors. Lets keep it that way.

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8 years 4 months ago #17699 by Kocho
Surf ski is not a contact sport... We probably wrote our replies above at the same time. So let me ask you, since you seem to say you are in the know: is pushing someone out of the way acceptable, when they are next to you?

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