How aggressive is TOO aggressive?

8 years 4 months ago #17700 by Mako
The overtake rules do cover it.
MishE was clearly overtaking MishB at the bouy and should have given MishB room because E was overtaking B. B's course was predictable, in that she had to round the mark. B was forced to stop paddling.

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8 years 4 months ago #17701 by stuartknaggs
Kocho, overtaking boat keeps clear. There is nothing in the rule that says anyone needs to take a direct line to teh finish or any other point on the circuit, specifically becaue this is surfski and the direct line is not always the fastest. Apart from te rule already stated, the only other one I can think might have applied was 31.1 - but again pretty tenuous.

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8 years 4 months ago #17702 by Kocho
I agree that the overtaking boat should not ram into the boat infront. However, as much as I can see from the video, the overtaking boat was clear, up to the point where they were about parallel to each other, then the one that was initially in the lead (but no more, the two were side by side) pushed to the right colliding with the other boat. IMO this is no longer overtaking boat keeping clear - this is 2 boats next to each other keeping away from each other and the one that got disqualified not only did not try to do that, they 2x tried to force the other boat off the course (at that point, the line is clear - no surf, pretty much flat, about 1 boat length width at the finish line - aim for your "half", not the corner just to push the other away...

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8 years 4 months ago #17703 by stuartknaggs
I disagree about the waves. Although they are small, both boats have clearly got their noses down as they aproach the chute.

The main point however is that this situation only ocoured because of the chute. As I said earlier - a chute has no place in a surfski race.

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8 years 4 months ago #17704 by STEWART
Bad Sportsmanship by Mocke(s).

Coming around the can M has directed his ski to the finish line. After a couple of strokes and sensing Jacobs has prob got the edge to take it in the end, due to J's catching up the previous straight, M has decided deliberately to go toward the red chute, to cut off J's.

As for the chute being there, it seems totally out of the way. Just watch as third position rounds the can, heads for home and only when we zoom out again can we see any chute in the background. Im sure it wouldn't have been there if conditions were not so flat. But seems totally out of the way giving a direct line to the finish from the last can. for more than two ski's..

As for the runs.. Again, watch third position.. Runs are caught for a moment but no real assistance, and no running out to their right.. Paddlers finish after following a fairly direct line from the can.

In my opinion a DQ for sure..
Its a race... to the finish!

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8 years 4 months ago #17705 by STEWART
And I do apologise for leaving the ladies names out of my reply!

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8 years 4 months ago #17706 by Fuyang Guy
Was it the nice thing to do? no
Was it in keeping with the best of fair play and sportsmanship? no

However was it out side of the rules as they stand? No.

Oh, and overtaking boat remains the overtaking boat until it has cleared the other boat, not until it is alongside.

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8 years 4 months ago #17707 by Mako
Some are ignoring the need for the overtaken boat to hold it's line when being overtaken

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8 years 4 months ago #17708 by stuartknaggs
Mako - first you must define the line..... there is no clearcut "shortest distance" line in surfski. I agree that a sudden swerve to ram another boat can be seen as contravening rule 26.2. However, I believe that in this case, there were no sudden movements and according to rule 26.1, the overtaking boat should have kept clear until they were past the overtaken boat. The fact that they would then have missed the chuite is just bad planning.

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8 years 4 months ago #17710 by jamii
Replied by jamii on topic How aggressive is TOO aggressive?
What is the definition of leading craft, nose ahead, cockpit ahead..& by what distance?
As per picture of Hank & Sean dice at the hotspot, it is obvious that ahead is ahead no matter how little and generally the leader has the benefit to choose the 'best' line to the mark that allows him his advantage, so the same should apply in finishing regardless of the route taken to the finish line!

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8 years 4 months ago #17711 by Mako
The 'line' would be the course the overtaken boat was on when the overtake commenced. The 'line' would be the course taken to the next way point from the last. Riding 1st wave from A to B and overtaking are different. Overtaking boat is not overtaking if it isn't moving faster than the other.

The chutes were great and gave the ladies a fair course clear of barging males. Ski paddlers race from and to public beaches. The organizers made the beach safe for the public and paddlers. Without constraints paddlers tend to barge their way past other beach goers. The chutes were more than wide enough and allowed end sprints for males and females without interference from each other. Organizers probably had a duty to define the race course to satisfy local authorities too.

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8 years 4 months ago #17712 by STEWART
Mocke used the red chute to his advantage by taking a line that would force Jacobs to either slow down and paddle behind Mocke or paddle 'over' Mocke to get to the finish line.. If its ok by the laws then well done Mocke.

The 'aggressive' sportsmanship shown is TOO much for my liking

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8 years 4 months ago #17713 by stuartknaggs
Jamii - Rule 26.1 calls in teh general IRPCS definitions. In this case, Rule 13 applies as below:

Rule 13

Overtaking.
(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I and II any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.

(b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.

(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.

(d) Any subsequent alteration of bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.

So basically you are finished overtaking when you are "past and clear".

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8 years 4 months ago - 8 years 4 months ago #17714 by PaddleFaster
I choose to edit my post under Rule 5, sub-section 1A that states...

A long-winded nonsensical post, posted whilst drinking an ice cold Chimay Grande Reserve Ale immediately following a 15 mile( 24Km) paddle in, 95 F (35 C) temperatures can be modified when said poster sobers up a few hours later!

I seem to be needing to use this rule a lot this past month!
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8 years 4 months ago #17715 by Dicko
Its interesting Jamii, that none of the subsequent paddlers took Jaspers "faster line" to the finish. I saw Jasper use a convenient jetty to blow Dawid off an inside, and more advatageous, line at the Duel a couple of years ago. So in my book, he has previous form.

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8 years 4 months ago #17718 by NaClH2Oaddict
A low point in sportsmanship. Compare the line that all following boats took to the finish line. In this case the front boat went well out of it's way to impede the faster finishing overtaking boat. Correct decision.

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8 years 4 months ago #17724 by RedBack
Seriously, - those who maintain it was not a deliberate attempt to block are having a lend of themselves and are simply trying to justify exceedingly poor sportsmanship on the basis of flimsy technicalities. DQ justified.

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8 years 4 months ago #17725 by jamii
Replied by jamii on topic How aggressive is TOO aggressive?
I haven't ventured to defend the tactic as unsporting or unaggressive, but that the DQ is questionable within the nature of surfski racing.
Who knows what poor 'sportmanship' tactic may have happening in the chaotic start of the race, blades stuck in-front of other to gain advantage etc...it is within the interpretation of the variables that can happen and I'm certain that all paddlers accept it as such.
A few years ago Hank won at Flat World Marathon, where Busto had deliberately paddled out of bound of the finishing chute trying to force Hank out and was DQ's, my interpretation is that in this case of 'Ocean Paddling' it was within the demarcation and is borderline whether unfair or not.
Had there been bigger surf things would have panned out differently....I mean, say a wave a pushed the paddlers across from the straight line to the finish or they get washed up outside the finish chute, how would you then interpret the rules!

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8 years 4 months ago #17726 by Fuyang Guy
Those flimsy technicalities, are called rules.

And nobody is stating that he was not trying to block, or that it was good sportsmanship.
Just that with the rules as they stand, blocking is not disallowed.

I have yet to see anyone supporting the DQ come up with a specific rule that was contravened.

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8 years 4 months ago #17727 by RedBack
Including hypothetical possibles and variables is just a straw-man argument and what occurs at the start of a race is in no way comparable with the finish where there is more space, fewer boats and a clear line.

It also doesn't alter the fact that the lead boat altered its line significantly and specifically (to the point of collision) to avoid being passed.

If that's the only way a race can be won, a true sportsman would elect to take second with honour, rather than first at the expense of his own integrity.

If you believe sportsmanship should play no part in Surfski Racing, then we'll just have to agree to disagree...

In this case at least, the better paddlers were awarded the race.
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