Lightweight vs. skinnier

5 years 8 months ago #25405 by Davelis
Replied by Davelis on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
First of all I'm a Fenn fun and my boat is the Elite S I have try the uno max for a couple of session and a race and I was impressed with the quality, performance but not the price. The Epic gt has some failures, in Portugal Jasper's V14 broke for no reason and they bring him another one, everyone knows that, also a friend purchased one V 14 gt and at the press of his fingers at the bucket was cracking. I haven't heard anything for the V10 gt but are made with the same material so I don't trust them.

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5 years 8 months ago #25406 by Ranga
Replied by Ranga on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
Don`t want to get carried away with this but the NO REASON mentioned about the ski in Portugal was about 6ft, most of the guys were advised NOT to go out as the surf was too big. Oscar and myself were not going to risk it either.
I was there!

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5 years 8 months ago #25409 by Davelis
Replied by Davelis on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
I wasn't there but 6 ft doesn't sound like much, Very often I play with such waves or even bigger in the surf zone and my almost half the price Fenn haven't show any sign of damage,

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5 years 8 months ago #25413 by rhainan
Replied by rhainan on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier

Davelis wrote: I wasn't there but 6 ft doesn't sound like much, Very often I play with such waves or even bigger in the surf zone and my almost half the price Fenn haven't show any sign of damage,


You have some great logic there. My V7 has exhibited no damage in some extreme conditions and cost half the price of your Fenn, therefore it must be the most superior surf ski in the world.

Western Pennsylvania Epic Kayak Dealer

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5 years 8 months ago #25414 by Love2ski
Replied by Love2ski on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
I'm assuming 6 foot is based on the normal measurement being the top of the wave to the sea surface behind the wave. If so the face of the wave would be more than 10 foot. This is large surf and would snap a ski easily . I have at least 3 photos of snapped epics and fenns from smaller surf.

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5 years 8 months ago #25415 by MaxB
Replied by MaxB on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
If the (experienced) paddler was comfortable with the conditions and presumably expected the boat to manage them, but the boat failed, then surely the original comment about the boat's integrity has some merit?

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5 years 8 months ago #25420 by Ranga
Replied by Ranga on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
I have seen a ski snap in half on a 1 foot wave, that is not the question here. It is the operator in question and a bit of luck. Most of the time you will get away with stupid moves on waves, but believe me it will get you some day, don`t care who you are.

Had such an encounter myself in Portugal, got it wrong playing on a tiny 3 foot wave with a very strong short carbon ski, bang, in half! My first in 35 years, very embarrassing. Was not an Epic!

One of the most experienced paddlers in the world chose not to go out due to the conditions (and advised others as well), his ski weighed 8kg and thought the better of it considering he had to race it the next day or two and it was his ONLY ski! Obviously the people that chose to go out had a flotilla of skis at their disposal! Suppose lucky to be in that situation!

I know of many skis that have been damaged in surf, I fix them for a living and have seen more than most. The honest ones admit their error and accept responsibility for their mistake but that tends to be rare, usually the ski gets the blame, even though it has been faithfully used for weeks or months or even years without incident. All of a sudden the build quality gets bad, how strange. You must hear the tales I hear, could write a book.

As for the original post? I would go for lighter weight and a ski I can comfortably paddle for a long distance.

Test paddling a ski at half pace for half an hour is always easy, to my knowledge there are not many half hour races! Make sure you can paddle hard for a full race distance and still feel stable at the end of the paddle, this will give you a good idea if the ski is suitable for you.

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5 years 8 months ago #25421 by MaxB
Replied by MaxB on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
I think the integrity of the boats is very much in question. Why should a surf ski break in 1-3ft waves, regardless of the operator or the way it is being paddled? These are "surf skis" we are talking about, not rowing shells. Sounds like products not fit for purpose, and/or dodgy marketing if we're really expected to believe that this sort of thing is acceptable.

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5 years 8 months ago #25423 by Love2ski
Replied by Love2ski on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
Actually surfskis are probably lighter weight than rowing shells. They are not designed for breaking waves.

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5 years 8 months ago #25424 by MaxB
Replied by MaxB on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
Surf skis are not designed for breaking waves? Maybe I have misunderstood what surf actually is my whole life, as apparently do the manufacturers of so-called "surf skis". And you should tell that to every surf club in Australia that relies on them for surf competition and for assistance and rescue, as far as I was aware.

Yes some surf skis ARE becoming lighter weight than rowing shells. That is my point. It is ridiculous that these craft are apparently no longer suited to their intended purpose.

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5 years 8 months ago #25425 by Love2ski
Replied by Love2ski on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
Maxb
the sport of surfski has split into two formats
You are talking about the original format using club or spec skis to race in the surf. In this context the craft are designed for breaking waves and are heavier as a result.
The second format involves ocean racing in lightweight ski designed not to catch breaking waves but open ocean swells. These skis are not built to withstand the pounding that spec skis receive. I am sure any of the manufacturers will tell you this.
This forum is predominantly about ocean racing skis. I am sure there are many others that cover clubby skis.

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5 years 8 months ago #25426 by Davelis
Replied by Davelis on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier

rhainan wrote:

Davelis wrote: I wasn't there but 6 ft doesn't sound like much, Very often I play with such waves or even bigger in the surf zone and my almost half the price Fenn haven't show any sign of damage,


You have some great logic there. My V7 has exhibited no damage in some extreme conditions and cost half the price of your Fenn, therefore it must be the most superior surf ski in the world.


My logic was not about superiority but about seaworthiness so I would trust a V7 to go out in the open sea but not a gt

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5 years 8 months ago #25427 by Love2ski
Replied by Love2ski on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
The vacuum Carbon fenns are almost as light as the gt. Paddlers have been doing serious offshore downwind runs on those for years without major issues. Unless the gt has some kind of manufacturing fault the mere fact it is light does not make it unsuitable for offshore. My understanding is that the layup method effectively concentrates resin only where it is needed cutting weight significantly by eliminating excess resin. I've not heard of any real problems with the gt around Sydney

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5 years 8 months ago #25438 by MaxB
Replied by MaxB on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
I'm well aware of the different types of surf skis available and their uses, thanks. Any craft that cannot withstand white water has no place in the ocean, and shouldn't be marketed as a surf ski. The ocean is unpredictable, and this is a matter of safety.

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5 years 8 months ago #25439 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
This argument has been held a hundred times. Latman ( who manufactures skis in Australia) summed it up best when he stated, "you can have a light ski or you can have a strong ski, take your choice" or something like that.
Paddlers want light skis. You can't have a ski that weighs 11kg's that is also strong enough to go nose first into a sandbank. If you want a ski that lasts buy a glass ski that weighs 18kg. If you want to go fast, buy a carbon ski, but don't whinge when it breaks. Personally my skis have been heavy, but in order to keep up with my mates I need to paddle a carbon Elite. Such is life.

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5 years 8 months ago #25447 by MCImes
Replied by MCImes on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
Exactly this. Its common sense. Heavy skis are strong, light skis are weaker. Carbon is some pretty amazing stuff, but you cant bypass physics. Less material is weaker. Does this not make sense max?

If your argument is that ultralight skis are weaker then heavier skis, you are correct. If your argument is that a 10kg epic is weaker than a 10kg (fill in the blank), then you need to show a repeated pattern across many skis in the same conditions. Basically a scientific study, or a lot of reliable field evidence that shows the same thing. I dont think anyone has studied this scientifically, and I dont think you're the authority to comment on ski building is what we're getting at...

Currently paddling a Kai Wa'a Vega Flex in Southern California's ocean waters
Past Boats: Epic V10g1, Stellar SRg1, Fenn XTg1, Swordfish S
"When you've done something right, they wont know you've done anything at all"

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5 years 8 months ago - 5 years 8 months ago #25448 by red_pepper
Replied by red_pepper on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
Saying a heavy ski is stronger than a lighter ski isn't exactly correct. Simply making a ski lighter or heavier doesn't necessarily make it weaker or stronger. It depends on the layup (all else being equal, carbon fiber has roughly twice the strength to weight ratio of E-glass), the design (such as the presence or absence of stress risers, like notches and sharp corners, or stiffeners like molded-in ribs and such), build quality (has the resin thoroughly penetrated all layers or are there delaminations, how are the materials oriented, etc.), and how the loads impact the boat (handling and transport loads can impact a hull differently than wave or wind loads). There are a myriad of variables involved in the design and structural analysis of a ski that can impact the weight and strength aspects of the design.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kayaker Greg

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5 years 8 months ago #25449 by MaxB
Replied by MaxB on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
A poster in this thread commented on failures of a particular brand's lightweight construction, and said he didn't consider these boats seaworthy. He was immediately shot down by that brand's fan club, with justifications including waves being too big and contact from other craft.

My only comment is that these justifications are bullsh*t. I personally have made no comments about any brand, and I do understand that lightweight boats are typically weaker than heavy ones (thanks geniuses). My only point, basically in support of the original comments, is that if a boat fails at sea, be the boat light or heavy, then I think it's true that it isn't seaworthy. Big seas happen. Other unforeseen incidents involving other boats and debris happen. If a boat is prone to failure in certain conditions, and a person's life is put at risk as a result, then I see that as a problem. If you want a lightweight boat, great! Just use it on a river where it's less likely to put you in danger, and don't sell it as a "surf ski".

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5 years 8 months ago #25451 by Love2ski
Replied by Love2ski on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
MaxB, you are all over the place. The original comment that you defended was:

"Although both are made in China the Think has better quality and it's trustworthy on the open sea while the GT version of Epics isn't "

The evidence given to support the contention that the Epic GT is not trustworthy on the open sea was a breakage of the ski in six foot surf.

No other evidence has been given regarding the reliability of the GT. No evidence has been given of a GT failing in "big seas" or "at sea".

I have no strong passion for Fenn or Epic and paddle both. I think it is unfair to make assertions about the Epic GT which have no factual basis. From my experience, and the experience of everyone I paddle with in the Sydney fleets, Epic, Think, Stellar and Fenn make first class products ideally suited to offshore downwind paddling.

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5 years 8 months ago - 5 years 8 months ago #25452 by Fath2o
Replied by Fath2o on topic Lightweight vs. skinnier
MaxB, you and Davelis are absolutely right. Paddling in the ocean is not for pussys and you two should stay on the lake and leave the offshore paddling to the rest of us. ;)

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