V8 to V12

4 years 1 month ago #26695 by kwolfe
V8 to V12 was created by kwolfe
So as many of you know, I have a 1st gen V8 and been paddling 4-5 times per week for the past year and change. I also paddle SUP and OC1. I feel rock solid on the ski. I paddle 99% flat water lakes and rivers. The only chop I see is either from boat wakes or on the one lake I paddle at, we can get up to 2-3ft rolling swells if the wind is right. I have zero issues with balance in any one these conditions and haven't fallen out of the ski since after the first two weeks of owning it.

Lately I've been getting the itch to trade up to something a bit faster, more challenging and with a narrower catch. I found a fellow who has a V12 Ultra who might want to trade skis (plus a little money). I was originally looking for maybe a V10 but this is a good opportunity. Is the boat really unstable? Is this unheard of? it's just that I feel rock solid on the V8. Like I would have to try and fall out of the darn thing.

Thanks for entertaining a goofy question.

Kev

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4 years 1 month ago #26696 by Cryder
Replied by Cryder on topic V8 to V12
It's not unheard of, I did essentially the same thing (went from a v8-like ski to a V12, then a V14). But it is rare for obvious reasons. So if you are a bit obsessed and willing to put in the bucket time, it might be worth it. However, while the V12 is very quick with excellent secondary stability, skis have come a ways since its inception. Little tweaks like the bailer, cockpit, footbrace design are all updated on the new Epic skis. Depending on your weight and ambitions (racing, surfing or just fitness), the V10s, V10L or V10 would be a great bet. If you are a bit uncertain after paddling those, then a V8pro is also a blast (and shockingly fast for its configuration).

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4 years 1 month ago #26697 by AR_convert
Replied by AR_convert on topic V8 to V12

kwolfe wrote: a bit faster, more challenging and with a narrower catch.


Yeah, on the face of it then the V12 is not the ski to be moving to.

You would also be aware that there is a big difference between the old and new V10 and V10 sports.

I would be suggesting an intermediate something like an old V10 sport or new V10 as being the next logical step.

As Cryder said, it has been done, I saw a mate go from a heavy plastic ski to a Think Uno :huh: we all snickered at the naivety of the guy buying such a fast tippy ski, but he had that never say die attitude and within a year he was smashing us in our races.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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4 years 1 month ago #26698 by Ranga
Replied by Ranga on topic V8 to V12
If you are not going at an average of over 10km/hr in the V8 in flat water don`t bother, or over 14km/hr in a downwind also do`t bother.
You could have excellent natural balance and be able to switch, but generally you will go backwards with such a big jump.
The best way to check if you can switch is to do your normal paddle distance in the V12 and check your time and how you feel afterwards.
Remember you are doing this for fun, swimming next to the ski is no fun!

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4 years 1 month ago #26699 by photofr
Replied by photofr on topic V8 to V12
Flat water paddling is a completely different ballgame. You may find joy when gliding on your new V12. On the other hand, you best have a bit of determination, and patience for the first 7 or so days paddling the new toy.

The best advice I can give you:
Paddle gently at first, get your bearings, breathe, and paddle gently (did I say paddle gently?)

However, if possible, make the leap to an intermediate ski for the next 6 months of heavy paddling and then move to a V12.

Ludovic
(Brittany, France)

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4 years 1 month ago #26700 by rhainan
Replied by rhainan on topic V8 to V12
I'm selling my personal V10L Performance if you want to try it out. If you are under 180 lb. it might be a good choice. However, it is lively and can be a handful for an intermediate paddler in even small conditions. It took me the greater part of a season to get comfortable on it in all flat water conditions.

V8 to V12 is a steep jump. Unless you have incredible patience, it could be a very frustrating experience without time spent paddling something in between. I remember when I jumped from my V8 (1st gen) to the V10S (1st gen). Even the smallest lake chop made me sick with trying to remain upright. I was not happy. Life got much better when I got the 2nd gen V10S which most people agree has considerably improved stability.

Western Pennsylvania Epic Kayak Dealer

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4 years 1 month ago #26701 by kwolfe
Replied by kwolfe on topic V8 to V12
rhainan,
Actually I'm about 193lbs so just a bit big for the L though I really appreciate the offer. BTW, sorry I wasn't able to connect with you guys the other weekend. My girlfriends family had tons of activities lined up for us. Pittsburgh is a great city!

I guess ideally I would like a V10 or V10S. There just really isn't a market around me for these boats so it's not easy to sell the V8 outright. Don't get me wrong, I love my V8 but I was just looking for a little more speed. Not cruising speed, but sometimes I like to do sprints at the end of my 5mile morning paddle and I can really feel how the V8 gets maxed out where I can really dig in, but only get a small amount of extra speed out of the effort.

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4 years 1 month ago #26702 by rhainan
Replied by rhainan on topic V8 to V12
Don't get too wrapped up in the speed thing (hah! Like I should talk. I'm the poster child for unnecessary boat upgrades) "Feeling" faster and actually being faster can be two different things. I feel much faster on my V10L compared to my V10S, but the GPS does not lie. The speed difference for me is negligible.

The V8 races in the Sea Kayak class and is about the fastest boat you can get for such races. It can be humbling to be doing a race in a $5000 carbon fiber pre preg rocket ship and be passed by somebody in a V8 who is 10-15 years older.

Clearly you need two boats. Keep the V8 for rough days and for friends and get the V12 to practice swimming!

Western Pennsylvania Epic Kayak Dealer

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4 years 1 month ago #26703 by photofr
Replied by photofr on topic V8 to V12
@KWOLFE:
I wrote this "just for you"
www.surfski.info/forum/15-tips/18731-paddle-faster.html

I hope it makes some sense.

Ludovic
(Brittany, France)

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4 years 1 month ago #26704 by WingSuit
Replied by WingSuit on topic V8 to V12
Only because you say you paddle mostly flat water, I say go for it while the weather is still warm. Put in the hours and spend the first day remounting.

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4 years 1 month ago #26720 by Aurelius
Replied by Aurelius on topic V8 to V12

rhainan wrote: V8 to V12 is a steep jump. Unless you have incredible patience, it could be a very frustrating experience without time spent paddling something in between. I remember when I jumped from my V8 (1st gen) to the V10S (1st gen). Even the smallest lake chop made me sick with trying to remain upright. I was not happy. Life got much better when I got the 2nd gen V10S which most people agree has considerably improved stability.


If you had to pick one, which ski in the Epic lineup would you say has the best balance of speed and stability on flat water?

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4 years 1 month ago #26723 by rhainan
Replied by rhainan on topic V8 to V12
Easily the V10 Sport (2nd Gen) although the new V8 PRO might be one to consider.

My racing team specializes in adventure triathlon. This is like a traditional swim-bike-run race except the swim is replaced with a flat water kayak leg of between 2-7 miles. Almost all of our racers have now switched to the V10 Sport. While a very skilled paddler in a V14 or SEL may show up to race and be the leader at the end of the kayak leg, the V10 Sport keeps us close enough to the front to let our bike and run skills dominate. A 30 second gap in a straight up kayak race is forever, but in a triathlon it is a blink of an eye.

It is surprising how little speed difference there is between intermediate to elite class boats when paddled by intermediate to advanced intermediate paddlers. Technique and power can keep a technically slower boat right up there with the front pack, especially on short distance races.

But I do understand the temptation to run out and buy a super elite boat after you enter a race and are put in your place by the 60 year old lady who blitzes by you in her V14/Nelo/SEL/Mohican. Understand though that it is not the boat. She would have toasted you in a V8.

Western Pennsylvania Epic Kayak Dealer

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4 years 1 month ago #26724 by Aurelius
Replied by Aurelius on topic V8 to V12

rhainan wrote: Easily the V10 Sport (2nd Gen) although the new V8 PRO might be one to consider.

My racing team specializes in adventure triathlon. This is like a traditional swim-bike-run race except the swim is replaced with a flat water kayak leg of between 2-7 miles. Almost all of our racers have now switched to the V10 Sport. While a very skilled paddler in a V14 or SEL may show up to race and be the leader at the end of the kayak leg, the V10 Sport keeps us close enough to the front to let our bike and run skills dominate. A 30 second gap in a straight up kayak race is forever, but in a triathlon it is a blink of an eye.

It is surprising how little speed difference there is between intermediate to elite class boats when paddled by intermediate to advanced intermediate paddlers. Technique and power can keep a technically slower boat right up there with the front pack, especially on short distance races.

But I do understand the temptation to run out and buy a super elite boat after you enter a race and are put in your place by the 60 year old lady who blitzes by you in her V14/Nelo/SEL/Mohican. Understand though that it is not the boat. She would have toasted you in a V8.


Very interesting. Though the Stellar SR is my current " go-fast ski", I keep thinking about eventually switching to a V10 or something close to it in the Epic lineup. My 6 hour river paddle yesterday reminded me that no ski I've ever owned or test ridden even approaches the perfect fit and comfort of my V7. If the same holds true of other Epic offerings, a V10 Sport would be the ideal ski for me.

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4 years 4 weeks ago #26726 by kwolfe
Replied by kwolfe on topic V8 to V12
And that's the thing. When weather gets hairy, my V8 is my go to boat over the SUP and OC1. Just really wish I could find someone with a v10 or v10s who wanted a v8 instead. :)

In a perfect world, I'd get an advanced ski for the warm months and flat water and use the v8 for the winter and rough days but not sure if that money is in the cards right now. I did see a 1st gen v10 sport near me for $1400. I'm still tempted to go see it. Anyone ridden this boat in the past?

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4 years 4 weeks ago #26727 by rhainan
Replied by rhainan on topic V8 to V12
For me, the difference between the V10S 1st gen to 2nd gen was night and day. I don't know exactly what changes Epic made, but the stability was much improved. I would advise you to save your money and find a good used V10S 2G. It won't be much more money especially if you hit up your local dealer for a demo boat at the end of a paddling season (hint).

I am small and have a very short inseam, so that probably affects how particular boats feel. The V10L fits like a glove. The V10S and V8 are fine. The V10 is a bathtub for me and I have a hard time even reaching the pedals.

Western Pennsylvania Epic Kayak Dealer

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4 years 4 weeks ago #26736 by Midlifecrisis
Replied by Midlifecrisis on topic V8 to V12
Slightly off topic but hopefully still relevant....

I have been down the "2 skis" path to cover the flat and rough days. I mostly paddle in the ocean or harbour and found that I was rarely comfortable in the elite ski (Stellar SES) except for the very flat days. As a consequence there is now a fine layer of dust over that ski. I also found that switching boats meant I was never really comfortable in either.

If I changed boats now I would keep the intermediate ski I have (Vajda Hawx 46) now for most days, and replace my SES with a more stable ski to chase the swell on the big days (and for friends to paddle).

I really love the speed of the skinny ski on the flat days, but for that 1 paddle every couple of months it is probably a waste.

Just my 2C and how it works for me.......

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4 years 4 weeks ago #26738 by AdrianBruce
Replied by AdrianBruce on topic V8 to V12

rhainan wrote: For me, the difference between the V10S 1st gen to 2nd gen was night and day. I don't know exactly what changes Epic made, but the stability was much improved. I would advise you to save your money and find a good used V10S 2G. It won't be much more money especially if you hit up your local dealer for a demo boat at the end of a paddling season (hint).

I am small and have a very short inseam, so that probably affects how particular boats feel. The V10L fits like a glove. The V10S and V8 are fine. The V10 is a bathtub for me and I have a hard time even reaching the pedals.


Surprised by the comments about the fit of the various Epic cockpits. Been a while since I've paddled a V10S 2g, but my primary recollection is how massive the cockpit was in all directions, to the point where I couldn't get contact with the boat anywhere (other than the pedals and seat base, obviously). I would have thought the V10 would be a much better fit for the smaller to average sized paddler, assuming leg length is adequate.

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4 years 4 weeks ago - 4 years 4 weeks ago #26743 by rhainan
Replied by rhainan on topic V8 to V12
Here is a pic of me next to one of the guys who helped design the original V10. It may offer some insight into why I feel like I'm in a bathtub when I paddle a regular V10. The width of the cockpit is not so much of an issue as the leg length and depth (The walls feel much higher). All I can say is that my butt and body fit best in a V10L followed by a V10S and then a V8/V7. For another strange reason I find the V5 more comfortable than the V6. Your mileage and of course, your butt will vary.


Western Pennsylvania Epic Kayak Dealer
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4 years 4 weeks ago #26744 by Aurelius
Replied by Aurelius on topic V8 to V12

rhainan wrote: Here is a pic of me next to one of the guys who helped design the original V10. It may offer some insight into why I feel like I'm in a bathtub when I paddle a regular V10. The width of the cockpit is not so much of an issue as the leg length and depth (The walls feel much higher). All I can say is that my butt and body fit best in a V10L followed by a V10S and then a V8/V7. For another strange reason I find the V5 more comfortable than the V6. Your mileage and of course, your butt will vary.


Strange. I'm nowhere near Oscar's size, but I seem to fit perfectly in an Epic ski.

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4 years 4 weeks ago #26746 by kwolfe
Replied by kwolfe on topic V8 to V12
OK, since I think we have determined that it would be a big jump and given that the V8 is my winter boat because it's so stable, I think I might have to consider a v10s instead.

So here is a question, how hard is it to paddle a K1. They would be faster than my V8, good for sprinting and fun to have. How steep is that learning curve?

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