Topic-icon The holy grail of surfski design - ultimately ...

3 months 4 days ago - 1 week 4 days ago #29562 by Uffilation
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3 months 4 days ago - 3 months 4 days ago #29563 by Fath2o
Boyan, First off congratulations and good luck with your new design. Watching the video I see you are getting blasted in the face with copious amounts of water due to the nose diving under water. I don't know about you or others, but, I personally do not find this to be a desirable characteristic. I see you are wearing sunglasses. Is eye protection going to be a requirement for downwind paddling? I am also curious how much you weigh? Is nose diving going to be bigger concern for heavier paddlers? I see the Nelos's come with a wave deflector to obviously mitigate this issue with shorter, lower volume skis. I experience this issue with my Fenn XT and it is the equivalent of being blasted in the face with a fire hose. Some fun. I prefer not to wear glasses when paddling due to water spotting. I don't mean to be disparaging, just addressing my observations and concerns. Again, good luck and looking forward to the unveiling on Friday.

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3 months 4 days ago #29566 by Boyan Zlatarev
Hi Fath2o,
Thanks for the message and the questions.

This is valid concern and i would be happy to explain.

When I selected video snippets from the available footage I selected on purpose moments of splashing because i wanted to hide details of surfski 600 and also create the feeling of action.

I have to tell you straight that there is no surfski that one can paddle at high downwind speed (ranging peaks at 20-30 kph) where the surfski is going to stay nose dry.

The difference though is how different surfski models are affected by such interaction with the water. Boats with pointy bows, lower volume and less rocker tend to "grab" the water more in those situations and if the interaction happens at the wrong angle this situation can result even in a capsize from the immediate force on the bow.

This is not the case with Surfski 600. I went deep on a number of steep waves to see exactly how easy it was to recover control after "nose dive" and it was extraordinary. I can honestly say that I haven't paddled other surfski that would allow me such great control of the bow positioning and direction of steering.

The only time I had to be more attentive to keeping everything under control was when I really pushed the top speed in surfing in the range of high 20s and low 30 kph then it was important to get the hull hit the water after bounce at exactly straight positioning because when water enters the cockpit on one side at high speed this can also lead to capsize.

If i didn't put the wave deflector on i wouldn't get the splash but i would get the cockpit fill up with water more than with a deflector. I'm not a fit paddler (i have time to train about 30-40 sessions per year) and cockpit full of water really tires me up when trying to catch the next wave.

I'm around 90 - 95 kg with all my gear.

I used to paddle Fenn and at the time I found XT to be too flat on the rocker. I'm not sure if this is still the case as the model went through some modifications but anyway i think Bluefin is easier to handle in downwind conditions and the overall speed is about the same as XT.

I hope this helps
Regards
Boyan

p.s. Regarding sunglasses - i come from lifeguarding and this is safety gear for me. I also cary goggles in case i need to swim to shore.
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3 months 4 days ago #29569 by Spacehopper
Always interesting that the flyak gets held up as 'proof' that foils can't work competitively.

I think Formula 1 or America's Cup history shows that even with huge budgets and dedicated teams of engineers and designers they still often get it quite wrong, or achieve huge leaps in refining a new technology from year to year.

It makes me a bit skeptical that a few guys came up with the absolute optimum solution for a foiling kayak within a few iterations. The flyak looks incredibly crude by todays standards. If anything the 'faster than a K4' and the need for superhuman fitness suggest that the foils were perhaps too small.

The massive progress in the moth class over the past 10 years is due to the relatively open-source nature of development - a huge range of people coming together, experimenting, sharing their findings and bringing in ideas from other parts of sailing and other sports. It's meant that things that were considered 'impossible' 10 years ago are now commonplace - at least for the top 10 or 20 at the world championships. Though sailing in waves still remains a demolition derby - so good luck with solving the pitch control issues Boyan... ;)

There isn't a similar culture in ski/flatwater racing, for various reasons, so it's not unreasonable to speculate that the flyak barely scratched the surface of what may be possible. Whether foiling is a good idea is another discussion...

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3 months 3 days ago #29601 by davgdavg
Maybe its just me, but almost any water craft can go fast downwind in the right conditions. You can get a sup, oc1, and beginners surfski to exactly the same top speed on a wave. Heck, look at a surfboard, or look at a big wave surfboard. Its what happens in the lulls and crosswinds and hectic portions of water that really would make a "holy grail" surfski, at least to me.

The holy grail would be if it was fast and stable in all conditions. I'm sure this kayak is great downwind, but doubtful its going to be anything except slow in any other kind of water.

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3 months 3 days ago #29602 by Boyan Zlatarev
HI davgdavg,
I agree that almost any surfski will perform the same in downwind it terms of speed but I have to add that this is not true if there is lack of stability. So to obtain the speed a paddler need to have control and this is where the big difference is.

In terms of "slow" in flat water...what is the definition of "slow"? Is 10 kph slow? or is 14 kph slow? I am guessing different people have very different definition of the term. The question I am asking is:

If the surfski is "slow" on flat water, how does that impact your experience on water?

Is it less fun to be in the ocean just because you are propelling yourself with 0,3 kph slower through the water?

Or maybe the difference is 1 or 2 kph...so if you paddle against the current in your fast boat and your average speed drops with 1-2 kph...does that mean that you no longer enjoy your time on water?

One of my best downwind experiences was against very strong currents and I did average 11 kph screaming of joy all the way for almost two hours. Should I have "classified" that paddle as a bad experience because it was well below the speed I consider "fast"?

:)
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3 months 3 days ago #29603 by LakeMan
So here's my question....



How long can a person keep up this sprint speed? If a ski is miraculously fast it still has it's limits due to the engine powering it (us).

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

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3 months 3 days ago #29604 by Impala
In this video the foil kayak paddler doesn't seem overly strained:





But Rasmussen still commented that it would be only suitable for shorter distances on flat water.

To be honest, I had expected Boyan's kayak to look like this:



Secret will be revealed tonight, so take your last chance to speculate :P

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3 months 2 days ago #29606 by sandysan
I saw Boyan's Facebook post about the 600 and I'm still completely confused as to what is going on. I could speculate but I will let it get hashed out here on on FB before commenting further.

I get the cloak and dagger aspect but I am interested in this and I feel like I don't know anymore than I did before seeing it.

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3 months 2 days ago - 1 week 4 days ago #29607 by Uffilation
Boyan,
so I was not to far off huh wit posting #29458, 24498, 29504

A double twist on marketing phrases, thankyou, Sir !!!! B) :laugh:
This is so much better than a new ski, I love it!!!!! Me, the marketing hater fully approves of your marketing stunt :woohoo:

PS: btw. ... and spacehopper got the :P - intention with your bold claims at first glance of your s600 website.

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3 months 2 days ago #29609 by sandysan
I still don't understand it, I can wait till Sunday for the next teaser but the fact that he says on facebook that there will never be a physical surfski 600 perplexes me to no end.

I feel like someone on the outside of an inside joke.

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3 months 2 days ago - 1 week 4 days ago #29610 by Uffilation
Sandy, yep, kind of an inside joke, but much more.

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3 months 2 days ago #29611 by sandysan
I get it now, and like it less.

Speaking from personal experience, not everyone has access to downwind runs. I don't want a 42 cm ski because I think it makes me "sexier" ( to whom would be an interesting conversation as I paddle alone). I want it because I do have access to rivers, I can reliably paddle this boat on these rivers and want to essentially try to recreate the feeling I had as a youth paddling ICF sprint boats. I know I'm the minority but this is my experience.

I know I'm not the fastest around, but I am interested in putting in the work to get better. If the vapor 600 was faster than my boat I wouldn't buy one right away but it would be on my radar.

If you think that this is a great campaign, I don't see it. I'd never characterize what amounts to a bait and switch as a great campaign. But I'm not trying to get people into the joys of slower and safer DW runs.

But to each his own. Me, I don't like it but if it works, good on Boyan ( I guess?)

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3 months 2 days ago #29612 by Uffilation
Sandy, yep I agree why focusing the "claims" on DW conditions firsthand would habe been better to avoid "misunderstandings". Let's look at the positive side: for flat water paddling, we two can keep our quiver and it's not getting worthless soon by a wonder ski. However, I appreciate what he did for the reasons I wrote.

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3 months 2 days ago #29613 by Boyan Zlatarev
Hi Sandysan
I appreciate your opinion and I can understand how you feel.

Given your comment, I think you are sitting in Surfski 600 already since you feel competely safe and in contol in the environment you use your boat.

Best Regards
Boyan

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3 months 2 days ago - 3 months 2 days ago #29614 by Boyan Zlatarev
Thanks Uffiliation,
I'm glad you see the bright side :) (smiley!!)

I think there is no wrong way to deliver a message if it will be remembered and it doesn't harm anyone.

I think the Surfski 600 mind set can help many stay out of trouble and have more fun on water.

Best Regards
Boyan

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3 months 2 days ago #29616 by sandysan
If your audience likes it, good for you. Although lured by the "faster" "more stable" it appears I'm not part of that audience. C'est la vie.

This argument was not new, the idea of whether you should learn on a tank or a tippy boat on the flats is one that has proponents on both sides. I have my opinion but if people chose the opposite, so be it.

Good luck with your downwind coaching, the more people who get into it the better.

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3 months 2 days ago #29617 by LakeMan
Are we seeing a lot of people dying from paddling skis? In my opinion one is too many but as sports go I think this is fairly safe. I also think the best approach to safety is to make it clear to those new to the sport what they need to follow some simple guidelines. Picking the right ski for the water type is first one the list. Wear a good PFD, use leashes for your paddle and leg so you're not out at sea without a ski or paddle. Let people know where you'll be and when you'll get back. Paddle with a buddy when in open water. Wear a signal locator. And most of all don't chum the water for sharks. I'm sure I'm missing things but my point is that there are better ways of promoting safety then advertising a non-existent ski. If it worked for some that's fine but it did nothing for me.

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." - Winston Churchill

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3 months 2 days ago #29618 by Boyan Zlatarev
Hi LakeMan,
In my work I see many people in the wrong boats trying to do the wrong things.

I come from lifeguarding background and we were thought that prevention is far more effective than reaction.

If someone doesn't make their living from surfski it doesn't really matter how many accidents there are as long as it is not them but for those of us who don't want to see the sport banned or very much restricted we need to find inventive ways to address the issue of people trying to do things in the wrong craft, which you also said was one of the main safety rules.

One can argue what is the best way to pass on a message and from coaching perspective I have learned that a message that is not "anchored" to something disappears and gets forgotten.

So, I decided to do something about is. I think doing something is better than doing nothing and the message is remembered anyway even if some didn't like the way it was delivered :)

That's the point of memorable messages. Some of the most memorable lessons in my life didn't arrive to me in a silver platter and they somehow were the most valuable too.

Smile!
Boyan

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3 months 2 days ago #29619 by Boyan Zlatarev
Hi Sandysan,
There is a fundamental difference in each approach and it arrives from the goal of each approach (starting on a "tank" or a tippy boat).

The starting on a tippy boat approach works for selected individuals who may find it suitable and this is simply a way for few people to start the sport (me being one of them as i started in Fenn Millennium...as nothing else was available to me).

The starting on "a tank" approach is based on the desire to make the sport more accessible to a wider audience where the tippy boat approach will never work. There could never be more people capable to use tippy boat compared to a stable one...it is a fact.

Best Regards
Boyan

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