DeBrito leak

2 years 1 month ago #32704 by nell
DeBrito leak was created by nell
Now that the DeBrito bailer has been in the hands (on the feet?) of lots of paddlers worldwide, has anyone come up with a good hack to keep it more watertight?

Mine was watertight when it was new. A few months later, it started slowly leaking into the footwell (not into the hull), so I swapped out the thin neoprene washer for a new one. The new one was good at first but then started slowly leaking into the footwell a few weeks later. The leak rate isn't that severe - maybe a couple of pints every 10-15 minutes or so, but I have to think that since it leaked much more slowly when new, there must be a fix for this.

Anyone make a washer cutout from a different material? Soaked the neoprene washer in parrafin or something? Anything else worked or didn't work? I have to think that some paddlers out there have approached this issue...
EBorgnes

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 years 1 month ago #32705 by Fath2o
Replied by Fath2o on topic DeBrito leak
First of all I have no experience with a DeBrito bailer in a surfski. But, do have experience with Andersen bailers in sailing dinghies. Essentially same thing.
This may not apply in your situation, but, I believe the presence of any sand, dirt, debris, etc. would compromise the integrity of the bailer in short order.
I question the use of this type of system in a surfski. Seems unnecessarily complicated to me.
Good luck.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 years 1 month ago #32708 by Ranga
Replied by Ranga on topic DeBrito leak
Neoprene is an expanded rubber, basically solid rubber with microscopic air bubbles infused into it make it soft. But compress it and you squeeze those small air bubbles and flatten them out, Hey Presto! you now have basically solid rubber, without huge forces you will NEVER seal anything with that.

I usually leave my bailer open when not in use so it has time to re-expand to original form, Neoprene has good memory characteristics so will want to go back to original form. I do this on all my bailers, Epic as well.

However these are not watertight implements and were never intended to be so. They are bailers to drain water with the least amount of drag when not being used and are foot operated so when you do get water the solution is to tap them open and drain the water out, not very difficult.

As for being unnecessary? Not sure what hydrodynamic degree you have but drag is the biggest drag (excuse the pun) on any hull, adding protrusions is only going to slow you down. Just do the maths and you will be astounded by the numbers, yes over 50m very little effect, 50km huge.

I am astounded by manufacturers that refuse to put them in their skis, clearly they have never used one and seen the speed of water removal, and yes the standard answer is they are so complicated!, clearly they have to say something, can't say I prefer to go slower and have lots of water in my cockpit for as long as possible. Why not just add two protrusion or even three onto my hull and double or tripple the drag surly that must be better?
The following user(s) said Thank You: Fath2o

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 years 1 month ago #32717 by Fath2o
Replied by Fath2o on topic DeBrito leak
Ranga, I have a lot of respect for you and the information you provide to the participants of this forum. I do not particularly appreciate the personal attack and find it unwarranted. We all have a different perspective on things.
So, putting the drag and usage issues aside. Have you ever had to replace or repair an Andersen or DeBrito bailer and how often? What do you charge a customer to do such a job?
Respectfully, Kirk

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 years 1 month ago - 2 years 1 month ago #32719 by Jef58
Replied by Jef58 on topic DeBrito leak

Fath2o, not a DiBrito or Anderson, this was a Hoyt Allen on my old Cobra Eliminator. It was very easy to change all the sealing parts with this rebuild kit. I sourced it through Annapolis Sailing (APS). They have rebuild kits for Anderson. The bailer leaked when I bought it but worked pretty good after the changeout. It's almost impossible to keep water out of the ski anyways. I can't see a DiBrito to be a difficult task either.

As far as installing one in place of the venturi's (if that was your question to Ranga), that would take some skills in boat building/repair.
Attachments:
The following user(s) said Thank You: Fath2o

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 years 1 month ago #32720 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic DeBrito leak
I have 2 Stelar SEL's. One has a an Anderson bailer one has a single drain with a piece of rubber glued under the venturi hood that acts like a one way valve. Both stop the water coming into the boat when you first get in or stop paddling. One cost a lot and one cost about 10cents. The bailer is good and the reduction in drag is noticeable, but when you need to open it the drag is significantly more than the drag from a venturi with a bullet. You also lose a boat length every time you have to stop paddling to open or close it.

Many years ago red 7 invented the bullet with the intention of reducing the drag from the venturi hood. This allowed them to add 3 drains to the red7 pro.

If you are thinking of adding a bailer because you want to slow the water getting in your boat, spend 10 minutes and glue a flap of 1mm rubber etc, over the drain hole on the outside of the hull under the venturi hood. It's a lot cheaper and easier.

If you want to reduce drag, add a bullet to the venturi. Remember, a bailer only reduces drag when its close. When its open it actually produces more drag and it takes time to open and shut it.

PS sorry for getting off topic Nell. I have no idea how to fix your bailer, but Ranga's insight into the properties of neoprene are all true and accurate.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Fath2o

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 years 1 month ago #32721 by Ranga
Replied by Ranga on topic DeBrito leak
As for the personal attack, I only state the facts from what I see, might be a bit blunt, sorry for that.
Yes I have changed out a few different bailers, including DeBrito, Anderson and some other types. The DeBrito is the easiest to change, but generally you would only have to replace the seal without removing the bonded in part, but if you do need to replace the whole think it can be relatively easily removed as it is only bonded in with Sika Flex.
The Epic one is an quite different as that is bonded in with a much stronger glue and then finished off on the outside, the Anderson is mounted the same way as on an Epic, I would not attempt to do those without some knowledge.
As for a repair kit on an Anderson bailer, doubt it is possible on the ones I have worked on as they are welded together and are a sealed unit. The DeBrito is possible as the assembly screws are easy to get at from the top, the Epic is also very difficult as the screws are hidden on the outside under paint and then if you do get to remove them it is still bonded to the ski, essentially a sealed unit.
I have also fitted a few bailers to different skis that had scuppers but this requires a fair amount of composite skill.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Fath2o

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 years 1 month ago #32722 by Fath2o
Replied by Fath2o on topic DeBrito leak
Thank you all! And I rest my case.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 years 1 month ago #32727 by wesley
Replied by wesley on topic DeBrito leak
Nell, email Chris C. I was in search of a different material for my bailers and Chris sourced it and I used it on one of my skis that worked better. One of my other skis, I got frustrated with opening and closing it all the time since it leaked too, so I just wedge a piece of foam in the bailer to keep it slightly open all the time as a compromise. My other sks all work reasonably well. I currently have 3 different brands in my garage all with debritto bailers. My preference is not to have a bailer. My Van Dusen Mohican had the 1st andersen bailer in it and I had to reseal it. So with the constant opening/closing, leaking, replacing, etc I want a properly placed venturi like were on most of the skis before all the brands switched over. If it were an option I would go back to the venturis and be a little slower. The only time I like a bailer is for pure flat water in very cold winter conditions.

Wesley Echols
SurfskiRacing.com
#1 in Surfski Reviews.
The following user(s) said Thank You: mortenlinding, Fath2o

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 years 1 month ago #32728 by nell
Replied by nell on topic DeBrito leak
Thanks Ranga, Wesley. I much prefer the openable / closable bailer, and I think the DeBrito is a good robust design and will likely outlast the ski that it's on. And, if I should need to replace it, it'll be a simple and inexpensive task to do.

The only trouble I see with the product is with the gasket, which like Ranga suggests, gets compressed and then starts to slowly leak. I'm fine with opening the bailer every 10-20 minutes for a few seconds to allow the 1-2 inches of water to drain out, but I have to think that there is a better gasket material that can be easily sourced. Latex? I'll contact Mr Chris and see what he found.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Fath2o

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 years 1 month ago #32732 by Fath2o
Replied by Fath2o on topic DeBrito leak
I feel this has been a very informative discussion on the pros and cons of the DeBrito type bailers vs the venturi/bullet bailers. For me, and how and where I paddle, I prefer the venturi type bailer.
Thanks to all for their input.
Nell good luck with solving your leak problem. One possibility, is applying a neoprene friendly grease to the gasket to seal. Would attract sand/dirt though.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 years 1 month ago - 2 years 1 month ago #32736 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic DeBrito leak
I've used neoprene at work for 30 years and what we call neoprene nowadays isn't the same as the neoprene of old.
The original neoprene was a true closed cell neoprene, which meant it couldn't be compressed. It was the best cushioning material ever made. Because of this it became expensive and a lot of similar products sprung up that look like neoprene are made from the same stuff as neoprene but they are not true closed cell rubber, which traps the air in little bubbles in the rubber. These knock offs are what Ranga is describing as neoprene.
The original neoprene was marketed as spenco (I think, it has been a long time since I've used it). The only other closed cell material that I know of is a thing called poron, but this doesn't have the same durability as spenco neoprene.
If you can source Spenco Neoprene (its green), it is often used in sports innersoles for shoes, it may be worth trying that.
The following user(s) said Thank You: nell

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

2 years 1 month ago #32738 by tve
Replied by tve on topic DeBrito leak
Dicko, thanks for the info! I found "Spenco SpenCore Bulk Roll Insole Material 42"x48"x5/32" -Blue" $94. Ouch!

I believe this may be the best bet: www.amazon.com/dp/B000S6JTMQ
Looks like flat insoles one could cut a gasket from...

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

1 year 4 weeks ago #35331 by DaveTheKayaker
Replied by DaveTheKayaker on topic DeBrito leak
I just stumbled upon this thread because, well, I need to replace the gasket on my deBrito drain.  I just cut one from a sheet of neoprene I picked up on Amazon for ~$10.  I'll let you know how it turns out, but I want to pass along a template deBrito has for cutting out that gasket at:  http://debrito.se/drawing.html

Thanks for the discussion, all!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

6 months 1 week ago #36591 by agooding2
Replied by agooding2 on topic DeBrito leak
Thanks, I bought a $15 sheet of neoprene and replaced the gasket using this template and it worked fine on its maiden voyage, only a few drops of water in.  I'm leaving the bailer closed to see how long it lasts.  The old gasket was compressed and torn so leaked a few pints every few minutes, so had to open and close it often,

i have leftover neoprene, so I can use the rest to make people gaskets if they are interested.  I'd charge $5 including shipping for two of them  as long as shipping isn't more than 2 first class US stamps. My home from college student can make a template out of plastic for more precise cuts of the neoprene.  

I used XCel 3mm neoprene which got good reviews on Amazon.

-- Andrew

Nelo 550L, Think Fit, Nelo Viper 55

Braca XI 705 EL blade, 17K shaft
Braca XI 675 marathon blade, 19K shaft
Braca IV 670 soft blade, 19K shaft

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

5 months 2 weeks ago - 5 months 2 weeks ago #36754 by jateureka
Replied by jateureka on topic DeBrito leak
I have a Nordic Kayaks Nitro 60, which I purchased as an ex demo, and the bailer leaked quite badly by the time I took delivery. I watched the YouTube videos on how to replace the gasket and I bought some replacements from the dealer. When I disassembled the bailer it was full of sand so I cleaned it thoroughly. I tried 3 different seals but they all leaked to some degree. I think there is too much play between the parts now and I need a whole new assembly. 

My other NK Storm 57 that I purchased new has no issue with the bailer but I am careful not to have it open when it's on sand and I rinse it well and store it open one click.


 

Current: NK Storm 57, Grafton K1 intermediate kayak
Previous: Fenn Swordfish S, Think Evo II

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

1 month 3 weeks ago #37441 by uk gearmuncher
Replied by uk gearmuncher on topic DeBrito leak
My 2019 550L has started leaking now. I have to admit, I don't think it's the greatest design in the world. I tried a few other rubbers or neoprenes I had kicking around (note, the gasket in my Nelo DeBrito bailer is different in dimensions than the drawing shown on the DeBrito webpage) but in the end I'm now trying a thin 1mm rubber butyl material that has been added to the original one in a sandwich configuration. Testing in my garage seemed to show that this had reduced the issue considerably.

Just how much water leakage through the bailer would you consider 'normal' ?

Previous Boat Journey: Gaisford spec ski, then Fenn Bluefin, then Epic V8 Pro, Now a Epic V10 Sport and a Nelo 550L.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

1 month 3 weeks ago #37442 by kwolfe
Replied by kwolfe on topic DeBrito leak
It really is a crap design.  I got rid of my 550 but that bailer bugged me 6 months after owning the ski.  I have a V14 with the original Anderson mini and it works great.  No leaking at all.

As for normal leaking, you should be able to sit in that ski for 10 minutes without more than a handful of drops in the footwell.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

1 month 3 weeks ago #37444 by DaveTheKayaker
Replied by DaveTheKayaker on topic DeBrito leak
So that last video was actually mine and that gasket lasted about 6 months before it started leaking. Worse, it left adhesive goo on the bailer that I struggled to remove upon the next replacement.  I've tried two other types of neoprene since that were even worse.  If and when I ever stumble upon a material that actually works I will share it, but I'm liking the idea of gluing thin rubber to the underside to alleviate the problem.  It is insidious.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Y.C

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

1 month 2 weeks ago #37449 by zachhandler
Replied by zachhandler on topic DeBrito leak
Are the debrito dimensions such that it could be removed and easily replaced with an epic or an anderson mini?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Latest Forum Topics

sarzelopez's Avatar

Video thread (459 Posts)

2 hours 55 minutes ago

Talk to me about cadence (22 Posts)

3 hours 20 minutes ago

Any tips on getting good leg drive? (6 Posts)

7 hours 59 minutes ago
Protected by R Antispam