Water in hull

1 month 3 weeks ago #34273 by Epicpaddler
Water in hull was created by Epicpaddler
Hi all.
I have an Epic v8pro that just recently started taking on water. I never noticed it before, but after a race last weekend I heard some water sloshing around in the hull. I turned the boat upside down and lifted the bow and stern to drain the water through the vent plug hole. About a cup or so of water came out. There are no visible gaps, cracks, damage, or popped seams that I can find. The boat was never upside down or taking waves over the bow. I'm sure a little can find its way in through the rudder lines. How much is normal? Should I be concerned? The boat is less than a year old.

Thanks

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1 month 3 weeks ago #34275 by zachhandler
Replied by zachhandler on topic Water in hull
Water getting into skis is extremely common. It cannot enter through the rudder lines as they run through hollow plastic tubes that are sealed to the boat at both ends. Unless those hollow tubes are cracked or separated from the deck where they are glued. The most common place for water to enter is through the tube that the rudder shaft goes through. This should be watertight, but banging the rudder against things in the water or on land can cause small cracks that leak. Another place for potential leaks is where the bailer goes through the hull. Examine the hull very carefully for damage. All sorts of small dings happen, mostly getting the ski in and out of the garage or wherever you store it. You can do a pressure test to looks for a leak. This is easiest with 2 people. Spray soapy water on all areas that could potentially leak. One person blows some air into the vent and holds it closed with there thumb. The other examines all soapy areas for bubbles forming. If you find the leak it can probably be fixed easily. Now that your boat is emptied of water, pay attention to how quickly it returns. A cup an hour is really annoying  and worth fixing in my opinion. A cup in 10 hours on the other hand is pretty easy to live with. Everyone has their own threshold for fixing a boat.  

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1 month 3 weeks ago #34279 by robin.mousley
Replied by robin.mousley on topic Water in hull
One consequence of getting salt water into the hull is that over time, it gets heavier...  

Salt is extremely hygroscopic so if you have salt inside the hull, the hull will never dry out properly.
Salt is also very dense - weighing twice as much as water for the same volume.
When you get sea water into the hull, even though the water molecules may evaporate, the salt does not and it remains inside the boat.

Over time this can lead to weight gain of kilos - so it's worth getting the boat fixed and flushing the hull out.  Some time ago, one of our readers put together a system to dry the inside of her ski after she rinsed it out.

Tech Tip: Drying out the inside of a Surfski Hull

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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1 month 3 weeks ago #34280 by zachhandler
Replied by zachhandler on topic Water in hull
Good call rob! I am 2000 miles from the nearest salt water. I dont have to worry about things like that. Or sharks, jelly fish, etc. 

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1 month 3 weeks ago #34295 by Ranga
Replied by Ranga on topic Water in hull
Rob, that is generally the case with other skis however there is nothing in an Epic that will absorb water so there should be no weight gain over time. I have repaired 10 year old Epics with no weight gain.

As stated before there are numerous areas for water to get in, I suspect the rudder tube as it is common to hit the rudder especially on rivers and lakes. The way I check the rudder tube is, I remove the rudder, put my finger over the top hole and suck on the hole on the hull, this will let you know straight away if air comes out, it should be sealed. As for the bailer I just close the bailer and fill the cockpit a bit and blow lightly into the bung hole and see if bubbles come out. Be very careful when blowing into the hole, you can damage any ski with too much pressure.

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1 month 3 weeks ago #34298 by robin.mousley
Replied by robin.mousley on topic Water in hull

Rob, that is generally the case with other skis however there is nothing in an Epic that will absorb water so there should be no weight gain over time. I have repaired 10 year old Epics with no weight gain.

But if the salt-build-up theory were true, absorption wouldn't have anything to do with it!

Are you saying that there's no point at all in rinsing a hull out?  

I know that people have argued for ever that foam stringers absorb water but I've spoken directly to some of the manufacturers who use foam and they say that they use "closed cell" foam that doesn't absorb water...  One of them said that he'd weighed nine-year-old boats built with foam stringers that were still within 100g of their original weight.

Anyway - I have a friend whose Fenn Elite S has leaked for years - he's finally had it repaired so we can experiment with it.  If we dry it out and weigh it, then rinse it out and dry it out and weigh it and there's a difference, it'll confirm that the salt theory is correct!

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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1 month 3 weeks ago #34299 by Ranga
Replied by Ranga on topic Water in hull
Hi Rob, Yes it is ok to wash out a ski if it has had salt water in it.

Some not all use closed cell foam and most will take on water that you will battle to get out. Almost impossible. I have had skis that have drained for 3 weeks. An Epic will generally be dry in a day or two.

Remember it is not only the foam thats the issue, you have manufacturers that use foaming glue to bond the stringers into the ski, that stuff is like a sponge. I can literally squeeze that foamed glue out like a sponge. Then you can have a very porous laminate, that also sucks up water between the laminate where they have either used a very high vacuum and sucked out a lot of the resin or not enough resin which then gets replaced with water.  Some skis have wood in them and when that gets wet, there is next to no chance of getting that dry.

I don't care what manufactures say, I work on ALL skis and know most of them inside and out, new and old and a true reflection of a well made ski is what it looks like inside. You will be shocked at some quality or lack of on skis on the market. 
The following user(s) said Thank You: robin.mousley

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1 month 3 weeks ago #34301 by robin.mousley
Replied by robin.mousley on topic Water in hull

Remember it is not only the foam thats the issue, you have manufacturers that use foaming glue to bond the stringers into the ski, that stuff is like a sponge. I can literally squeeze that foamed glue out like a sponge. Then you can have a very porous laminate, that also sucks up water between the laminate where they have either used a very high vacuum and sucked out a lot of the resin or not enough resin which then gets replaced with water.  Some skis have wood in them and when that gets wet, there is next to no chance of getting that dry.

Good point(s)!

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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1 month 3 weeks ago #34303 by Epicpaddler
Replied by Epicpaddler on topic Water in hull
Thanks for all the responses. I checked the hull again carefully to look for any damage. None to report. Tried the soapy water trick. Couldn't identify any leaks. When blowing air into the hull I could hear a tiny whistling noise like air escaping from what seemed to be the screws that fasten the rudder pedal rails. Sounded extremely minor. Took off the rudder and noticed about a 5mm chip missing from the bottom of the black rudder tube. Didn't appear to be the cause of the leak, but I filled in in with marine epoxy to be sure. Hoping to get out on the water today and see if it takes on any more water. Like some have mentioned.. a cup of water over several sessions wouldn't really concern me. If it takes on a cup of water in a couple of hours I'll have to investigate further.

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1 month 3 weeks ago #34309 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic Water in hull
JUst my 2 cents worth and I bow to Ranga's experience, but I've always found the screws hat secure the sliders in the cockpit to be a major problem. I've had a few ski's that only took water when the cockpit got submerged. I usually seal the screws with Sikaflex. Worth checking.

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1 month 3 weeks ago #34311 by Epicpaddler
Replied by Epicpaddler on topic Water in hull
Got back out on the water today for about an hour and a half. Did a little surfing (well, as good as as gets on the bay) and had plenty of waves over the bow and the cockpit bailer open most of the time. No water drained from the hull. I think if the water isn't coming in through the rudder tube it probably came in from the slider rails.

If that's the case I'm in luck because the only time my cockpit was filled to the brim is when I got home and rinsed the boat with fresh water. My son was filling the cockpit up for kicks to see how the bailer worked.

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1 month 3 weeks ago - 1 month 3 weeks ago #34314 by zachhandler
Replied by zachhandler on topic Water in hull
In my 1st epic v12 I had the screws that hold the metal rail in loosen to the point that I lost steering. Maybe that is a completely separate issue from leaking there. At any rate I screwed them back in with some “loctite” on the threads and never had another problem. 

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1 month 3 weeks ago #34321 by Kupuna4x
Replied by Kupuna4x on topic Water in hull
I have just found out that my Epic V10 gen2 is leaking at each of the rudder line guides in the footwell. Hard to tell from the photo if the discoloring around the guide is showing a previous repair or if it is from the original install. It is unknown if the tubing has just come loose from each guide or what. Does anyone have experience in repairing leaks at this area? I am super hoping that there is no other problems with the guide tubing.

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1 month 3 weeks ago #34325 by Kupuna4x
Replied by Kupuna4x on topic Water in hull
I have an Epic V10 gen 2 that is leaking through the steering cable guides in the cockpit. The leak is not around the guide where it is placed on the hull but where the steering line slides through. Has anyone encountered leakage in that area? If so how did you remedy it. Without taking the hull apart at the seam.

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1 month 3 weeks ago #34326 by robin.mousley
Replied by robin.mousley on topic Water in hull

Does anyone have experience in repairing leaks at this area?

I reckon Ranga will have some feedback for you on this!

(And apologies for the slow approval of your post - the forum is set up so that I have to approve the first two posts of any new member; it's the only way to keep spammers out.)

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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1 month 3 weeks ago #34335 by Ranga
Replied by Ranga on topic Water in hull
As for water getting in through the screws on an Epic, no can do! They are 100% sealed from the inside.

As for water getting in via the cable tubes? Very possible if old, 2 gen V10 would be new to me, unless it's been left in the heat for its whole life or a very old one. What I have found on old Epics the plastic tube has deteriorated to the point of getting small hairline cracks, letting water in. As for the tubes coming loose at either end, never seen that before on Epics but does happen on other makes.

Impossible to tell where the water is coming in in respect to the tubes as there is two open ends that will let air out when testing, could be one end or the other? However I have a strategy to replace the tubes WITHOUT opening the ski up. I do it quite regularly on many different skis for various reasons, sharp bends are a problem and the cables (usually S/S) wear through on the sharp bend over time, tubes coming loose, plastic perishing, glue perishing... 

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