Rudder Line Tube Rattle

1 month 3 hours ago #36175 by kwolfe
I picked up a V10S ultra layup last weekend (second hand).  When I got it on the water yesterday I notice that it sounds like the rudder cable tube is rattling on the right side by my hip.  If the rudder is straight and I take my foot of the right pedal, the pedal pulls backwards (no pressure applied to the left
pedal).  Then when I push the right rudder peddle back to straight I feel a momentary tiny bit of resistance followed
by a very audible rattle by my hip.
 
Now, if I keep pressure on both pedals and move the rudder back and forth, I don’t hear or feel anything. I open the yoke cover and the end of the tube is still attached their.  I can’t really tell at the front seeing as Epic uses that black plastic piece in the opening where the rudder line comes
out and goes to the pedal.
 
What I’m thinking is that the tube has come off somewhere and when I take my foot off that pedal, its falling down which is what’s pull the pedal
backwards.  It’s then the same thing that’s rattling against the inside of the hull when tension is applied back to the
line. Does anyone have a pic of an Epic ski split in half so I can see where
that line attaches?
 
Also, I really don’t feel like cutting open a ski I just traded my Nelo for.  Just hurts me to think about it, but what’s the most minimally invasive way to fix the potential
problem?
 
Not related to the fix, but I really do like the ski.  The fit is really similar to my V14 which love.
The following user(s) said Thank You: PC

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4 weeks 2 days ago #36179 by PC
Replied by PC on topic Rudder Line Tube Rattle
Likely cable rudder housing has stretched. Can be repaired without cutting open ski. Suggest contacting Epic

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4 weeks 2 days ago #36181 by tve
Replied by tve on topic Rudder Line Tube Rattle
Talk to your nearest Epic rep. They had issues with a new type of rudder tubing a few years back.

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3 weeks 6 days ago #36213 by kwolfe
Replied by kwolfe on topic Rudder Line Tube Rattle
So I have a bit of a game plan. 

Step 1:  I put a line connecting the rudder pedals to the bungee in front.  With this small amount of tension the pedal no longer falls back and doesn't rattle now so that's good however it doesn't solve the potential longer term issue.

Step 2: Get an inspecting camera (handheld with long snake camera and go int through the bung hole in front of the foot plate.  Problem here is not sure how to the get the camera to do a 180 degree turn so I can see the rudder line.

Step 3: Cut this bugger open to fix.  This is the last resort but may need to eventually.  My question here is, does anyone have pics of what the inside of the ski looks like?  I much prefer to have a idea of what I'm dealing with prior to opening the ski up.  Like, where does it run, where is the tube glued to (if at all) etc.  Chances are if I am going to cut the ski, I'm going to drill a hole first (in the rear deck) and put the camera in anyway.

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3 weeks 3 days ago #36230 by Ranga
Replied by Ranga on topic Rudder Line Tube Rattle
I get this all the time! People try to do their own repairs,  stuff them up and it ends up costing more to rectify than the initial job would have cost.
99% of the time I do not cut the ski open to fix this problem, if indeed it is a problem.
The loose tube is not a problem unless as you say it has a stretchy feel or it leaks.
Epics tubes are secured at intervals along the deck with glued in sleeves so it can stretch freely except at the ends where it is obviously secured.
Very old Epics do have a problem with the tubes deteriorating to the point of fracturing and letting in water, in this situation tubes need replacement (usually orange tubes and no cutting open the ski). However if they are just loose (stretched) then you can tighten them from the back hatch which requires special tools but also no cutting open the ski.

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3 weeks 3 days ago #36237 by kwolfe
Replied by kwolfe on topic Rudder Line Tube Rattle
Thanks for the info Ranga.  So the lines aren't stretching.  I paddle flat water so it's not taking any on.  I know it's no right because my V14 does no make this rattle and does not pull the rudder pedal back as if the tube is drooling down.

Therefore, I would assume that one of the sleeves holding the line broke which is letting the tube drop.  If that's the case, I wood assume that I would have to drill a hole in the side to glue the tube to the deck again.

Also, do you have a pic of these special tools?  Where the line connects to the rear yoke hatch looks to be epoxied.  How do you fix that?

Also, I'm in an area where surfskis are very very scarce so I really would have no clue where to get one fixed.

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3 weeks 2 days ago #36239 by leolinha
Replied by leolinha on topic Rudder Line Tube Rattle

Ranga wrote:  The loose tube is not a problem unless as you say it has a stretchy feel or it leaks.


In my V8 PRO I am sure that the tubes are loose on both sides. It has a very stretchy feel indeed, and they rattle sometimes. It does not bother me though, since I barely notice it when I paddle, because I am always pressing both pedals when paddling straight. I kind of got used to it...
But now I am worried. Why is the stretchy feel a problem? Should I send it to repair immediately?

Current: Epic V8 PRO, Think Evo 3
Past: Epic V8, Epic V10 Sport

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3 weeks 21 hours ago #36252 by Ranga
Replied by Ranga on topic Rudder Line Tube Rattle
As for drilling the ski to find the issue, WHERE?  You have no idea what the issue is or where the issue is. Sorry I am not being derogatory in any way and I know you are wanting to have a solution but it is easier said than done, having a set of spanners does not make you a mechanic, likewise giving you the tools to enable you to pull the tubes tight will not help much. I have spent most my life repairing skis and this is not the easiest of jobs to attempt, not saying you cannot do it but I have no idea of your ability.
You say the lines are NOT stretched but they have a spongy feel, Yes the Dyneema does not stretch but the tubes they are in are, otherwise you will not have the issue. 
However, Epic have a solution but I am not at liberty to let you have the relevant video but if you contact them they should be able to help you.

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3 weeks 7 hours ago #36262 by kwolfe
Replied by kwolfe on topic Rudder Line Tube Rattle
Well Ranga, you have managed to be unhelpful and long winded at the same time.  It really doesn't matter if I don't know a screwdriver from a hammer.  I asked a simple and direct question.  If you don't want to help, then don't.  Thank fine.

I did not say that the lines were stretchy (that was the other guy).  My lines are tight and fine.  Given the rudder pedal pulling back and the location of the rattle when the line is re tightened, I can make a a fairly decent guess that the line has become detached in the middle and is springing back which is causing the sound.

I have information directly from epic that details cutting a large hole in the ski to replace the rudder line.  I would rather not do this if the entire tube has not deteriorated.  If anyone has pics of the ski split that would be helpful.  If anyone else wants to post a pic of this mysterious line pulling tool that would be great also.

If it makes any difference, I am not a stranger to tools.

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2 weeks 6 days ago #36265 by Ncampbell
Replied by Ncampbell on topic Rudder Line Tube Rattle
I’m partway through replacing my rudder lines (they were dislodged at the rear) on my Fenn Mako, does anyone have recommendations on how to get the right tube length/tension before I glue the front? 

thanks, 

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2 weeks 6 days ago #36266 by robin.mousley

Well Ranga, you have managed to be unhelpful and long winded at the same time.  It really doesn't matter if I don't know a screwdriver from a
hammer.  I asked a simple and direct question.  If you don't want to
help, then don't.  Thank fine.

Wind your neck in mate, Ranga is blunt and direct, but he is trying to help!  Especially now in the time of bloody virus, let's assume the best of each other!

He sent these photos, showing the insides of various skis.  (For some reason, he couldn't post them, so he asked me to put them up).






Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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2 weeks 5 days ago #36272 by kwolfe
Replied by kwolfe on topic Rudder Line Tube Rattle
Thanks Rob, those were just what I was looking for.  I just got a borescope that hooks up to an iphone.  Only $30 off amazon.  Hopefully I can snake it inside to get an idea where the tube is sagging.

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2 weeks 4 days ago #36273 by mrcharly
Replied by mrcharly on topic Rudder Line Tube Rattle
Fascinating photos.

I'd assumed that the deck and hull of a surfski would be joined by some epoxied fiberglass (or carbon) tape. From the photos, it looks like is an overlapping flange and glue (polyurethane?) holding them together.

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2 weeks 3 days ago #36275 by Ranga
Replied by Ranga on topic Rudder Line Tube Rattle
First picture is a Fenn Elite S carbon that has no fixings for the rudder line tubes on back deck and the rest are inside Epics.
Epics do not fix the tubes completely, the tubes are free to slide on their fixings to allow for expansion and contraction, they are only fixed at either end. In the pictures they are sagging because as you can see the ski is in two pieces and the tube is not connected. These are old models of skis and construction , the construction of new skis has changed and use different materials but the fixing of the tubes has stayed the same.
As for the joining of the deck and hull there are various methods used. I am unaware of any that use polyurethane as finishing that is not very easy, epoxy and more exotic glues are used. Some have internal flanges and some don't but those that don't would have external fiberglass taped seams.

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2 weeks 3 days ago #36276 by mrcharly
Replied by mrcharly on topic Rudder Line Tube Rattle
thanks for the information. That is interesting.
I thought of polyurethane when I saw the yellow glue around joints. Epoxy doesn't usually look like that when cured (unless I guess it has filler in it).
Is that epoxy or one of the more exotic glues you mentioned?

Curious about this partly because I need to do some amendments/extensions to bits in my K1 sometime (rails for footplate are too short).

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