Aussie ski buyers beware. Add on to Not Again post

  • gnome
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10 years 8 months ago #7591 by gnome
Í just got ripped off by an Australian Ski dealer on the east coast. None of which are named in the 'Not Again post'
Here is what happened and you can make your mind up either way. This is my version and my oppinion of what happened.
I 1st saw an add on Geartrade re a big clear out sale. 2nd hand boats, xdemos and a new blah blah ski. I got the 'NEW'Blah Blah ski. I spoke to the dealer and he said the Blah Blah ski was the last one of that brand to get rid of as he didn't wish to continuing dealing with that manufacturer anymore.
So the agreement was made.
When I agreed to buy the ski the original transport was going to happen via a friend of the dealer to deliver it to Tasmania to me the buyer. Originally it was to happen in a couple of weeks after payment. This fell through as the transporter ended up no being able till the end of this year, so that ruined that idea. Who wants to wait 9 months?

Next step was to get AAExpress to deliver it. We both came to an agreement and this was;
Price included the ski, transport and insurance to deliver it to me.
I have all the receipts (emails etc) to show we both knew what we were agreeing too. I have confirmation of a quote from the dealer to transport the ski including insurance, on a seperate txt message on my phone, I still have that for evidence too. So at this stage it was all getting organised by the dealer. I felt secure everything looked legit.
Weeks past and the ski didnt leave, Im getting annoyed at this time.
The ski was finally on its way. It left and was delivered from NSW to the Gold Coast, by another friend of the dealer. Why you might ask did that happen? Good question dont ask me. I work for a company that sends items all over Australia and I knew that the best place to send things is from a Major Depot like Sydney/Melbourne etc not a regional like Coolangatta. Big airport have bigger planes, that helps when trying to fit big things on the plane. The ski sat at the dealer friends place for a couple more weeks. I was going away on holidays soon and wanted to take a boat with me so I asked for a refund as if it hadnt left in the following days I wouldnt be around to pick it up. That is not allowed by AAExpress pick up has to be fast. So finally the ski was delivered to AAExpress on the Gold Coast. AAExpress ended up having to truck it up to Brisbane Major Airport Depot to get it to Tasmania.
The plane that took the ski ended up picking up stuff from Sydney, Melbourne then finally arrived in Hobart Tasmania. I decided to go pick it up as I live in the North of Tasmania thinking I would take one stage of transport out to help reduce the chance of damage. That was a waste of time as it was already smashed. The back metre was near snapped off.
Obviously I called the dealer. We were both openly dissappointed. The dealer appeared at this stage good. He said he would get the ski patched up till a new replacement would arrive. Though the ski would only be any good on flat water. At this time I was stupid to agree to help him out with some costs to get the new replacement. This amount was originally for $200 maybe $300. I figureed that would be about the freight charge to send the ski back to the dealer. So, far enough.
Well weeks later the dealer then wants me to pay $1000. Thats when Australian Consumer Protection was contacted. I sent off all my copies of receipts that showed the agreements and acceptance of the agreement by the dealer, copies of emails from AAepress to state the ski was damaged in transit and confirmation the DEARLER never took out the insurance. The copy of the consigment shows the dealer was the sender and I was the reciever. Im afraid Consumer Protection (CP)is powerless to force anyone to pay refunds etc if the person whom the complaint is against just says they dont agree with the claim.They (CP)can only make judgment if its a clear and simple breach that the person at fault admits to. Australian Consumer Protection appears to really be there to try to scare the person into doing the right thing. I will have to take my claim to court. Due to the product being purchased in NSW I was told I needed to lodge the claim in that State, remember I live in Tasmania.
Now I have to decide to spend more money, which would include loss of wages to fight this person who should not be in business. Though I am very tempted to do so just so I can name and shame the dealer publically.
Even though I have physical proof of what transpired and what was agreed too by both parties I will have to take the matter to court even though all the dealer had to do was say/even in writing to Australian Consumer Protection (nothing in physical proof) that I organised the freight, I didnt take out the insurance, it was an xdemo etc. He just hopes I dont go to court. It is rediculous Consumer Protection cant straight away say sorry dealer you have nothing to prove his case so do the right thing and refund it.

So in the end I have payed alot of money for a ski that if it was an xdemo doesnt even have a scratch on it, besides the broken end. which Im sure you all would agree is unusual. No scratches on a xdemo! MMmm. When i was originally told it was new.
The dealer took my money for transport and insurance but never paid for the insurance as he assumed the automatic insurance covered the ski. AAExpress Auto Cover only covers for loss and under $1000 worth and if its under 3 mtres long.
The dealer did get the ski patched up, so at first he obviously acknowledged he was required to sort it out but then changed his mind because he didnt take out the insurance and it would have cost him all the money to fix the problem. So it appears honesty went out window.
I also think the dealer is trying to rip off the manufacturer by saying the ski was damaged from them to him. As Icontacted the manufacturer to find out if there is a dedicated leg rope point on the ski and to say the dealer was very helpful. The next day the dealer rang me up and was very upset with me. So I think he was trying to get a free ski to give to me and get me to pay all the freight.
Now he has my money for the ski insurance and transport, probably a free ski from the manufacturer to sell again. He doesnt appear to have any integrity?
So if your looking the buy a ski make sure you can trust the dealer If you can go in and pick it up you should be much safer. Im sure there are many good dealers in Australia, just do your homework to make sure your as safe as possible before handing your money over.
I hope one day to openly say who this dealer is so hope no one else gets ripped off by him. Remember the ski community is a small place and word will get around.
Paul.

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10 years 8 months ago #7593 by AR_convert
Sorry to hear your tail of woe Gnome :(

I agree that on the information you have given he has failed to honour the verbal contract he entered into that he would have the ski insured.

Thank-you for sharing your story so others may learn from this experience.

It's stories like this that led me to look at who supplies ski's locally and what after sales service they provide BEFORE deciding on a ski.

Like a local car dealer in Perth says "Choose your dealer before you choose your car"!

It would only take the loss of a few skis in sales to wipe out what he has saved by not replacing your ski, but the sad thing for him is that as word gets around it will have much bigger impact than that. If I was him I would be making sure your next post was, "Good news, the aforementioned ski dealer has come good with replacing the ski".

Are there any ski dealers in Tassie? Why do you need to go looking North?

Always looking for the next boat :)

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  • gnome
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10 years 8 months ago #7594 by gnome
I was looking around for ages trying to find something that sounded like what I was looking for. Something similar to a K1 feel in the seat hump area. It is a good ski, glide is great on flat water to maintain a good rythm over long distances. Top speed isnt so good but Ok. As most of the other ski's had more rocker for downwind and I wanted a cross over ski. Flatwater and allround ocean boat. So for me I was looking at near zero rocker, this ski has near zero rocker. Just what I wanted. Then another selling point was there was some green products used in the layup which is a nice touch too. Its longer than some of the other ski's too. Another feature that might have an effect over long distances, but thats open for debate.
I tried the local stuff like the Fenns Epics (Epic tried a bit late as I should have got one of those) Stellars etc but they didnt feel quite right. All nice boats though. So my need to find the best craft to suit my requirements was my down fall, if I just got what ever locally as the differences are stuff all really then I would be happy now instead of feeling why are some people so unethical.
Paul

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10 years 8 months ago #7599 by Martin
Hey Paul

Have to say I would be livid. At face value it certainly appears to be a case of the dealers pulling a fast one. I had a new Epic elite delivered a few years back that arrived from the east with damage and have to say that they replaced it immediately, no questions. I currently have a new Elite, that decorates my wall, as I have been paddling a Carbonology Atom, which at 5.95 m has been described as like paddling a K1 on steroids. Very nice on the ocean too. ( see Robs review )

By the way how long was that ski you bought?

I hope your have this nightmare resolved. Bad publicity seems to be the only thing consumers can use, and make no mistake...people remember these kinds of things.

All the best
Martin

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10 years 8 months ago #7600 by Draftbuster
Sounds like you got ripped off well and truly :( And sounds like its going to be very expensive to replace and to fight.I wonder how much is it worth to the dealer and the supplier?As in is it worth the bad press on here and every other forum of communication to have their name put to the bad experience that you have had.I'm pretty sure you can talk about your own experiences?maybe let the dealer be aware that your not happy and are going to share your experience with anyone who will listen.I think there is also a feedback section on gear-trade I hope you have so the next person can at least be aware of a past problem.

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10 years 8 months ago #7601 by Colnagodreaming
Who is this dealer? Can he not be named on this site? We all support your position and are interested in avoiding contact with such unethical businesses

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10 years 8 months ago #7605 by Boof Head
I reckon you have provided enough info about product and general location for any body in seQld and Northern NSW to make an educated guess. I might be wrong about who I think it is, so look forward to an eventual name and shame so that I can be certain. These things cost way too much to be stuffed around.
My latest ski is a Stellar. I live in Bris. and purchased it awhile ago before any distributors were up here. Was very happy with the transaction and subsequent delivery (which was free).

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10 years 8 months ago #7606 by Rightarmbad
I assume that all is correct and not just one partial side of a story with bits left out in answering this.

It is way simple.

This industry is too small and too well connected for any dodgy operator to survive.
Any seller who does the wrong thing, will loose more, not only in the long run, but more than likely in a short medium term, than any cost savings they made by being a diick.

The grey area is where a seller is struggling financially and simply cannot put things right because they are simply not financial enough to do so.

This also highlights the risk of brands just having a single representative in an area that is not backed 100% by the brand.

If the individual seller cuts corners and something goes pear shaped, most are not in a position to say, replace a ski, and make the world rosy.
Selling a few boats out of your backyard will not fund that sort of back up and the brand will have to step up and fill in the backup gaps to keep their brand name.
Even if the brand did nothing wrong, they must still cover for their marketing front men or take a hit to their reputation.

It's just the state of the game at this stage of this surf ski sport's development.

So for me, if I am to deal with the little one man marketing, I will try to establish a dialogue with the brand itself before purchasing.

I often wonder if there is a place for a retailer to simply offer display space and demos for any brand that wishes to put boats in store on a consignment/shelf space rental basis.
The brand would be welcome to put a salesperson on the floor at any time they wish to help push their product, or simply leave it to the operator to just put people in the best boat out of the many on offer.
It would be a great thing for a purchaser to go into one big shed with boats of all brands racked up to compare and a demo service for those they were really keen to try.

Here on the Gold Coast, we have one store, seemingly millions of industrial shed based SLS types, and a few guys representing brands out of their back yard.

No wonder people that come and talk to me to ask about these rather long obvious skis, have no idea where to go or who to talk to about getting into the sport/pastime.

I am sure that the market around here is so far from saturation that is is not funny.
But there is just no real marketing going on.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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  • gnome
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10 years 8 months ago #7608 by gnome
I cant say who it is by name or by the brand of ski, as guess what that would do. Legally would put me in possible trouble. He can do what he wants and I have to pay to get justice but if I slag off about him, Im sure he would go me and if I did that I would lose. Life is oh so far. Not!!
When I first told him I had gone to Consumer Protection his first response was. 'What is your claim number'.
Sounds like he has had experience doesnt it?
I wont be specific for obvious reasons. The length of the ski is somewhere between 6.42m 6.75m. The length from the manufactureers specs site may differ from the real physical length as I dont know as Ive not measureed it. So if you can figure how many ski's there are that are over 6.3/6.4m and 7m you might be able to work it out?
When I paddle the ski, only on flatwater as I would never trust it on the ocean. Im sure everyone will be able to figure out where it came from in NSW (thats the east coast of Australia, not the West coast). People will ask where I got it from and I can say where I got it from. Then I will show them the repair and show then the copies of the agreements that I will keep laminated and stored on the the ski for people to read for themselves. That way I wont have to say it. Then they can make their own judgment.

I have a question as I dont know.
How many ski's are made with enviromentally sustainable products in their layup?

Its real crappy now. I saved for so long to get this ski because Im a low income earner. Now I have a boat that's realistically safe for flat water and I already had a flatwater boat. I would never sell the ski without telling and getting the buyer to sign to say I told them it had been patched up. As I could not live with myself if the bloody thing broke at sea and someone drowned. The dealer was more than happy to patch it up and re-sell it to another sucker. I said at the time I would never be a part of any sale because the local scene is small and people might say I sold a lemon and knew about it.
So once again. The dealer got my money for the ski,transport and insurance. He might be getting a free ski from the maker then will get to sell that one and make all that profit on two ski's for the cost of one ski. I get a piece of crap thats more than likely not safe out at sea. Then again I will get to paddle it on flatwater and get reminded each time I paddle it of how the dealer may have got away with it and I still cant go off shore.
I am going to repost all of my posts on this subject each month for as long as it takes for me to feel that as many Australian's wanting to buy a ski in Australia will take notice and might think twice about any purchases of a ski from NSW that is a little longer than your normal ski.
ps
Apart from this website what are some other websites in Australia I can post this subject on to get more exposure?

Paul.

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10 years 8 months ago #7611 by Rightarmbad
If you post facts, then how could you get in trouble.
Slander is only slander if it is unfounded.

If you are open and post ALL facts then there can be no crime.
Any action that occurs will not be before a jury, so you cannot prejudice the jury's decision.

It's cheaper for the dealer to fix the problem than take action against you........

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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10 years 8 months ago #7612 by egger
I agree - stick to the facts and nothing but the facts and you have nothing to worry about.

This thread is turning into a Whodunnit!

We know the crime was committed in NSW, with a long ski, but who is the perpetrator ??

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10 years 8 months ago #7613 by cdo
Hi,
Can I just add another tack on this thread. I am not trying to defend the situation at all, but airfreighting kayaks/skis into Tasmania I don't believe has a good past track record. Hobart airport has a rather unsophisticated freight terminal and all freight/luggage is transported out of planes on open carts. It is common, given this situation, for skis to be dropped or blown off the carts. I am personally aware of one kayak that was blown/bounced almost 500m along the runway before being retreived. I also am under the impression that insurance for a ski/kayak by airfreight into Tasmania is so cost prohibitive that it isn't going to happen. Having said that though I know of at least one brand who under similar circumstances supplied a new boat to the purchaser and took back the damaged boat. A year later I saw the individual behind this brand at a race at Grafton, he was using that repaired boat as his own race boat because in his words it was "unethical to ever sell this boat even if he explained the previous history to the purchaser". This individual/brand has a huge following in Tasmania and everyone thinks highly of the brand. Result: it is one of the most popular brands within Tasmania.
Got the message here yet?

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  • gnome
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10 years 8 months ago #7614 by gnome
Hi cdo
Since getting the ski I have found out your right in regards to freight to Tasmania. I now have heard of many.
The issue is.
The dealer quoted me a price for the transport and insurance after the initial transport arrangments fell through. The dealer could have said 'No' to the sale.
So
I paid for freight and Insurance. On top of the sale of the ski
The ski got broken
He should be able to claim on the Insurance I paid for
He did not pay the money I paid for the insurance.
He made the mistake
He is in business
He should fix the issue
Simple.
Paul.

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10 years 8 months ago #7615 by cdo
Understood Paul...as stated I wasn't trying to defend the situation, just making the observation.
By the way the really good dealers/brands will send boats to Tassie on "Cash on Delivery". You can then at least briefly inspect it before payment, but I am not aware of anyone who will COD via air freight to Hobart. Likewise the well known local dealers will obviously stand by their reputation and do the right thing regardless. One dealer I am aware of here likes to send a full shipping container of boats at a time, hence knowing that it will not be opened until delivery. Likewise this dealer will inspect each and every boat before passing on to the purchaser.

Lets hope your issue is sorted with a sensible outcome soon.

Cheers

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10 years 8 months ago #7616 by Dicko
I ordered a WHITE red 7 from a dealer in NSW a few years ago, had it shipped to WA and it survived. Only trouble was, it had turned orange when it got here. Honest mistake I thought.
A mate ordered a ski from the same dealer and when it showed up was also the wrong colour and was an older model with an older style rudder. Methinks a pattern is developing.
Send what the hell you want to clear stock that won't sell and hope that the buyer who lives a long way away won't pursue the issue.
Gnome, I suspect we may be talking about the same dealer.
If this is the case, someone needs to tell him to pull his head in.
You go first.

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10 years 8 months ago #7619 by fredrik
Maybe the manufacturer/importer is willing/able to help with a replacement boat (possibly used but safe)?. No doubt this matter is about to hit the brand as well if this guy/shop is a registered dealer for the brand - and that would be unfortunate.

Good luck!

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  • gnome
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10 years 8 months ago #7620 by gnome
Hi Dicko
Me thinks you could be right.
The funny thing about it all. The dealer at our final verbal conversation said the breakage was my fault. Mmm, how?

He even told Consumer Protection I organised freight because I knew the freight people. No, I dont know them. I just rang them up to find out when it was supposed to leave the depot. Then I contacted the Depot manager at the destination to get all the information and written confirmation that the sender didnt pay for the insurance. Plus to confirm who organised the freight.Yep its right there on the Consignment slip

The dealers name as the Sender
My name as the Receiver.

It would be great if we could find a few others that may have been affected by the dealer so we could do a Class Action with multiple victims. He would be charged with more than just a simple single act of poor business judgement error but full on fraud. He would lose more than just one ski. Business, house jail comes to mind.
That would be a bit over the top but would make my day.
Paul.

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10 years 8 months ago #7639 by tony h
Paul it is a great shame to feel ripped off!
Living on the Gold Coast, I had a similar poor experience with this dealer & can only imagine his business will go broke long term if he doesn't provide after sales service that makes the customer come back for their next ski - it is far too small a community to get away with this!!
There are a few good quality people associated with this brand on the GC that unfortunately are let down by this particular individual!
Stellar, Stealth, Fenn (ocean paddler), Carbonology & Epic (adventure outlet) provide excellent service (pre & post purchase) & would encourage you to consider them with your next purchase!
Interstate ski transfers are always fraught with damage risks - fact of life we have to accept!
Expensive lesson, thanks for sharing your experiences making us all the wiser.......

ski's - McGregor C/R // Nelo 560L // Epic: 1st/2nd/3rdG V10/10L/10 sport, V14, V12, V8, V7, double -v10/v8 // Stellar: SES 1G/2G, SEI 2G // Fenn: double, elite SL, swordfish 1G/2G // Carbonology: vault, atom, flash //hayden spec ski / gibbons oc. ski / red7 / stealth spec/ocean ski / think legend

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  • gnome
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10 years 8 months ago #7643 by gnome
Hi Tony
Are you saying you think I got it on the Gold Coast? I got it from NSW. Just so its clear as I dont want any other dealer hurt by mistake.
I did call into Adventure when I was on holiday, mine was getting patched at that time. They were very nice and helpful up there. The next one I get will be local (Tas). Or from a shop that will write a full legal contract prior to sale, not a collection of seperate emails to the agreement. So there would be absolutely no way I could be ripped off again.
I just came across a free legal aid place in NSW, so I will give them a call and see what they reckon about the situation. It would be nice if all that had to be done was send off all my records like I did with Consumer Protection and the organisation (Legal Aid) should keep it simple contact the other person and see if they have evidence and if not do a simple ruling and lay down the law to force the situation and inform them they are on shacky ground and they might just end up worse off by going to court.

Thanks everyone for your support.
Paul

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10 years 8 months ago #7647 by Rightarmbad
If this is correct, this dealer is an idiot.
Why would anybody risk their reputation for one bloody ski.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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