Fenn Swordfish

5 years 10 months ago #9960 by Ric
+1 to everything he says - I got to try the BLU on Saturday (ok, so it was a demo day with loads of boats to try) and, as a vocal Genius CLK fan (thx for the flames on previous threads) of 74kg, I also found the BLU to sit too high.

I found it rather strange that I could paddle the Vault (using tiptoes) more easily than the BLU.

and yes, CLK is a beginner boat, just a bit faster than the Horizon / XT (imho).

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5 years 10 months ago #10003 by robin.mousley
Had an interesting paddle yesterday.

Dale Lippstreu and I paddled the Swordfish and V10 Sport Ultra, alternating boats.

We paddled a 3km triangular course in Hout Bay, twice, once in each boat..

The first lap I was on the SF; Dale was on the V10S. We then swapped skis and did it again.

The first lap we were neck and neck, I got to the beach first but only by a boat length or so. Most of the time we were literally side by side - we'd agreed not to slip each other so as to make it a fair comparison.

The second lap I was on the Sport and steadily paddled away from Dale, to the extent that towards the end of the first leg, I stopped to let him catch up. We tried again on the second leg and the same thing happened.

He figured that he was tired from the previous lap and a hectic doubles race the evening before.

But we swapped boats again and did another 500m dice and once again, on the SF, I was paddling hard to keep up with him on the V10S.

This was only one paddle, so I'd hesitate to say it's conclusive but it does look as though the V10S is slightly faster than the SF.

We agreed that (for us):
- the cutaways on the SF make for a more comfortable paddle stroke. Both of us hit the side of the V10S hull with our paddles more than we did the SF.
- the V10S seat, though slimmer and more comfortable than the old V10S seat, is still very wide - there's a big gap on either side of one's thighs and also around one's legs. Why DO they make the thing so big?
- The SF bucket is a snugger fit and you feel more connected with the boat.
- The foredeck of the SF appears slimmer; the V10S has a more "fat tub" feel. This is deceptive though - the hull of the V10S is actually slimmer in front of the cockpit as evidenced by the fact that it fits on my cradles whereas the SF does not.
- The cutaway at the back of the SF is kinder to your back - you can lean back onto the aft deck more comfortably than the on the V10S which has a relatively sharp edge to the back of the bucket.

Intriguing.

At 2pm we're having another go. There's a brisk SW blowing and some big swell coming into Hout Bay so we should have another set of great conditions for testing the boats. (Our 3km lap involves side-wind/chop; head-wind - with reflected swell from behind; and downwind).

Rob

Currently Think Evo II, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others I can't remember!

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5 years 10 months ago #10004 by Rightarmbad
What is the layup of the Swordfish you are testing?

Right now I'm pretty much convinced that within reason, the weight of a boat is more important than the hull shape.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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5 years 10 months ago #10005 by robin.mousley
The SF is vacuum glass epoxy layup and weighs 13kg.
The V10S is an ultra layup (carbon kevlar honeycomb) and weighs 13.5kg

Rob

Currently Think Evo II, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others I can't remember!

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5 years 10 months ago #10009 by owenfromwales
How much reason are you talking about RAB? A glass elite-level boat at 17kg would surely trounce a 10kg beginners boat if all else was equal. For the weight to be more important to results than the shape, then the shapes would have to be very similar, but realistically, I think this argument is a bit of a dead-end matey.

189cm 90~100kg
Present skis:
2017 Stellar SEI 2G
1993 Gaisford Spec Ski
1980s Pratt Spec Ski
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor
Previous
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor X 3
1987 Kevlar Chalupsky (Hummel) (Welsh copy!)
1988 Kevlar Double Chalupsky
1992 Hammerhead spec
2000 Fenn copy

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5 years 10 months ago #10010 by Dicko
I would love to know how much flex there is in the lightweight glass SF vesus the carbon/kevlar v10 sport. Herein could lie your answer.
Everyone keeps rattling on about how light the new SF is, but it is accepted knowledge that the lightness and rigidity of the carbon boats give them their speed. My guess is the SF has lightness but not the rigidity. Another run of the famous flex test could be in order.

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5 years 10 months ago #10011 by Rightarmbad
It is far from proven that stiffness beyond the basic necessary to not wobble around has any performance benefit what-so-ever.

If stiffness was really important, then K1 would not simply put weights in their marathon boats to bring them up to sprint weight, they would stiffen the structure instead.

Willing to change my view with any evidence you can supply, but at this stage I think any stiffness gain from a fibreglass layup to a carbon one will show no speed improvement.

I CAN see/feel and measure immediately, an improvement in speed with either a lighter boat or less pounds on my belly.
Much more than I thought previously.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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5 years 10 months ago #10013 by Rightarmbad
Within reason?

I'm obviously not talking a V8 to a V12 comparison.
The V8 and similar boats have just too much shape difference.

I mean, say a V10 to a Fenn Elite.

Probably a level of importance that would mean that it is faster in a one level ski down in carbon, than the higher ski in glass.

My own examples. From my own data with me as the paddler.

A V10 carbon trounces a performance V12 and an Ultra as well, but not by much.
An Ultra V12 smashes my V10 performance, but there is very little difference in it in the same layup.
A carbon Swordfish is as fast as my performance V10 except in absolute sprinting top speed.(midrange speed 11 to 13kmh)

I believe a basic carbon layup vs a fibreglass layup is really close to stepping up to the next class of boat.

All terms general and substitute whatever layups the various manufacturers use, but a V12 performance gets trounced severely by a 9kg kevlar Vajder with me as a paddler on flat water.
But an Ultra layup V12 will match the 9kg Vajda.

I haven't got comprehensive data on other boats, but gut feeling and limited numbers suggest the same.


Now throw in the importance of being able to accelerate in the ocean to get the wave and the importance of weight grows in significance.

This is not what I though over 12 months ago, but now I simply have to believe that a light boat is fast.

So there you go, money can buy speed.
Ain't life a bitch.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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5 years 10 months ago #10014 by Rightarmbad
Maybe this is different for lighter to medium size paddlers as they have a much different waterline to us bigger guys.

It does seem that smaller people find the V12 nervous, yet the bigger guys all find it very stable.(with a crossover point around 85kg)
So waterline effects are not to be sneezed at, it certainly has the potential to dramatically alter a boats performance for different paddlers.

So if you are me, get the carbon.
Everybody else, go and find out for yourselves......

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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5 years 10 months ago #10017 by Marieski
If there is so much difference in speed based purely on weight, why don't we hear continually about the top paddlers, and all the would-bes, trying to shed a few more grams, let alone kilos?Surely easier, given their size, than racing a paper weight boat.

High end cyclists are obsessional about body weight.

Past skis: Spirit PRS, EpicV10Sport Performance, Epic V10 Elite, Stellar SES Advantage. Current skis: Fenn Elite Spark, Fenn Swordfish vacuum. Custom Horizon, Epic V7

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5 years 10 months ago #10018 by kiwial
a lighter boat can be accelerated quicker so gets to speed sooner and catches runs easier (because of the acceleration). In my experience a stiffer hull gives you more feel of the water so you have more opportunity to feel the little swells better and also doesn't flex and stall in a trough as much as a boat that isn't as stiff.

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5 years 10 months ago #10019 by tony h
Never expected that speed comparison suggesting the v10 sport was faster or equivalent to SF in the ocean!!!
It interests me as my butt has problems with fenn skis, at much as I like them.
V10 sport would certainly have broader appeal if there was a v12 type seat available in v10 sport that allowed a snug fit!
In the ocean it is most uncomfortable when one slides around in a seat that is too spacious. Hip pads are not adequate adaption for me.
The current smaller seated 'Z' model v10 sport is still way to large for the most medium / smaller paddlers.............. I would buy another v10 sport if it had a v12 seat option (have bought 3 x v10 sports & only problem was excessively large seat)

ski's in last 10yrs:
- Nelo 560L
- Epic: 1st/2ndG V10/10L/10 sport, V14, V12, V8, V7, double -v10/v8
- Stellar: SES 1G/2G, SEI 2G
- Fenn: double, elite SL, swordfish 1G/2G
- Carbonology: vault, atom, flash
- Also: hayden spec ski / gibbons oc. ski / red7 / stealth spec/ocean ski / think legend

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5 years 10 months ago #10020 by Dicko
RAB..flex equals drag and energy absorption. By your logic my glass vault will behave like a carbon vault if I drop my weight from 96 kg to 93.5 kg. In my dreams. Tony H, try a Vault and see if it fits your butt better.

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5 years 10 months ago #10022 by tony h
thanks Dicko, do currently paddle atom on flat water & vault in ocean....impressive ski the vault & agree the seat is very comfortable.

ski's in last 10yrs:
- Nelo 560L
- Epic: 1st/2ndG V10/10L/10 sport, V14, V12, V8, V7, double -v10/v8
- Stellar: SES 1G/2G, SEI 2G
- Fenn: double, elite SL, swordfish 1G/2G
- Carbonology: vault, atom, flash
- Also: hayden spec ski / gibbons oc. ski / red7 / stealth spec/ocean ski / think legend

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5 years 10 months ago #10023 by tony h
Agree with Dicko, within reason the weight issues raised by RAB are overstated in my opinion!

ski's in last 10yrs:
- Nelo 560L
- Epic: 1st/2ndG V10/10L/10 sport, V14, V12, V8, V7, double -v10/v8
- Stellar: SES 1G/2G, SEI 2G
- Fenn: double, elite SL, swordfish 1G/2G
- Carbonology: vault, atom, flash
- Also: hayden spec ski / gibbons oc. ski / red7 / stealth spec/ocean ski / think legend

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5 years 10 months ago #10026 by robin.mousley
My 2c to throw into the weight/stiffness discussion.

Stiffer boats are often tippier.

Lighter boats get thrown around more by wind and waves. This is most striking when going upwind in a stiff breeze. On our Millers Run downwind, we start off going about 800m out diagonally into wind and waves and the light boats get thrown around. At the other extreme I have a buddy who paddles an ancient and very heavy Mako6 - he ploughs upwind as though there is no wind.

Would you pay double for a 10kg boat if there's a 13kg boat for half the price?

Rob

Currently Think Evo II, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others I can't remember!

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5 years 10 months ago #10035 by Rightarmbad
Marieski, I don't think you will find any excess blubber on the elite guys, simple as that.

Tony H, I am only telling the results of my personal testing, not gut feelings and impressions unless stated as such.

I am not overstating, just observing and passing on what I find.
Me going faster in lighter boats with weight being much more important than I previously believed compared to hull shape is what the numbers tell me, not just a suspicion.

So for me, my next boat will be light and comfortable with whatever hull I personally find I like the handling of.

But given the choice of the fastest hull shape in a slightly heavier layup versus a slightly slower hull in the lightest layup, I'm taking the lightest.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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5 years 10 months ago #10036 by Rightarmbad
As to the stiffness question.
Can anybody point me to a true comparison of stiffness?

I mean two boats of equal weight but with measured differences in stiffness, not just some perceived difference because of the perceived benefits of generic layup that are really just folk lore?

Again, if stiffness equals speed? Why are there not specific sprint K1 boats made spruking the extra stiffness, instead of a bunch of people with sub 8kg boats adding weight to bring them up to 12kg for sprinting.

C'mon guys, we're talking Olympic medals here, have we all of a sudden stumbled onto a secret way of making sprint K1's go faster?

I don't think so.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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5 years 10 months ago #10037 by zachhandler
RAB - I recommend large bowel movement before each paddle. The weight reduction is worth about $200 in carbon fiber. Maybe more if you are paddling an epic in australia from what you guys say...

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5 years 10 months ago #10038 by Rightarmbad
Would you pay double for a 10kg boat if there's a 13kg boat for half the price?

Now you are talking value for money, not speed.
Different subject?

Not really, if a faster hull can in a cheaper layup can beat another boat in an expensive layup, then you gotta be tempted.

I think that the decision then would come down to 'is the faster hull pushing your limits of stability?'.

From listening to posts on this forum, I think that stability is the single biggest concern of almost every poster here.

So if stability is an issue, throw money at it, get the light layup and a steady boat that you can paddle to your max.




Or just have a ball on your average layup, less than elite hull shape and talk about how good you could be if you had the money and time like the big boys.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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