Fenn Swordfish

5 years 10 months ago #9856 by Red
Have used small rudders in races on both skis and outriggers, and they make a significant speed improvement, so Dicko you are right that it may narrow the difference.

Will have to organize a couple of test paddles, or win the lottery.

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5 years 10 months ago #9857 by jamo
hi red

i was talking to dean gardiner the other day and he told me in the flat his speed was only 0.5 kmh diference between the elite and the swordfish over 10 km.

chris walker has also posted this on an earlier thread his information was also from dean.

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5 years 10 months ago #9858 by Gavin Gottschalk
Red
If you're an intermediate paddler then the SF is the one for the ocean. And you'll only lose a small amount of speed on the dead flat. If you're an intermediate paddler then you'll be likely be fine on the Elite on the dead flat, but you'll lose significantly more on the ocean especially in rougher conditions.
But if you're an elite paddler, then this isn't an issue and go for the Elite because you can handle all conditions with equal skill.
In reference to Epic ski's, I've heard it said by Oscar Chalupsky that more paddlers should be on the V10 Sport and fewer on the V10/12. Take the brand out of it, but in principle he's saying that many paddlers are on ski's that are too high end for their skill levels and their performance suffers. Particularly with reference ocean paddling.

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5 years 10 months ago #9877 by robin.mousley
So... we had a Millers Run race today - the 2nd race in the Cape Town Downwind Series...

Conditions were excellent - 20kt breeze, not too hectic, white horses everywhere and just right for a racing field with varying abilities.

I was primarily racing against my buddy Dale Lippstreu - I normally beat him downwind when he's paddling his V10 and I'm on my Mako Elite. Really wanted to have a straight comparison. It was not to be.

I had a great start and thanks to the stability of the boat, went charging out to the rock, keeping up with paddlers who would normally pull away. Already proved this in Hout Bay on Tuesday. Stability rocks.

What about downwind?

I had a great paddle. Conditions were much more pleasant than the last two days and I was putting plenty of sequences together. I broached once and wallowed badly once when I tried to pull over a big wave in front. The ski (for me) really doesn't have unmanageable vices. The nose dips, but not too badly. It will broach, but by paddling and steering hard, I can usually catch it.

The only question mark (and this is unfairly comparing it to elite skis) is around its ability to glide on the waves, ie keep going smoothly after the wave has dissipated.

Result? Dale was taken out at the rock, literally had to bail when another ski was blown on top of him. I beat him by 5min, but not a fair result.

But I did beat another marker, Anton Holtzhausen, whom I have never beaten before. So he has less downwind experience than me - but he was on a light elite level ski. He's a competent paddler.

I'm still battling with the macho/ego thing - I want to be paddling my Elite in all conditions but have to face that at age nearly 50 and as a mid-packer, the SF is a much, much easier ski to paddle in rough conditions, and on the face of it, I seem to be as fast - actually faster in some conditions...

Conflicted!

Rob

Currently Think Evo II, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others I can't remember!

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5 years 10 months ago #9879 by robin.mousley
So... we had a Millers Run race today - the 2nd race in the Cape Town Downwind Series...

Conditions were excellent - 20kt breeze, not too hectic, white horses everywhere and just right for a racing field with varying abilities.

I was primarily racing against my buddy Dale Lippstreu - I normally beat him downwind when he's paddling his V10 and I'm on my Mako Elite. Really wanted to have a straight comparison. It was not to be.

I had a great start and thanks to the stability of the boat, went charging out to the rock, keeping up with paddlers who would normally pull away. Already proved this in Hout Bay on Tuesday. Stability rocks.

What about downwind?

I had a great paddle. Conditions were much more pleasant than the last two days and I was putting plenty of sequences together. I broached once and wallowed badly once when I tried to pull over a big wave in front. The ski (for me) really doesn't have unmanageable vices. The nose dips, but not too badly. It will broach, but by paddling and steering hard, I can usually catch it.

The only question mark (and this is unfairly comparing it to elite skis) is around its ability to glide on the waves, ie keep going smoothly after the wave has dissipated.

Result? Dale was taken out at the rock, literally had to bail when another ski was blown on top of him. I beat him by 5min, but not a fair result.

But I did beat another marker, Anton Holtzhausen, whom I have never beaten before. So he has less downwind experience than me - but he was on a light elite level ski. He's a competent paddler.

I'm still battling with the macho/ego thing - I want to be paddling my Elite in all conditions but have to face that at age nearly 50 and as a mid-packer, the SF is a much, much easier ski to paddle in rough conditions, and on the face of it, I seem to be as fast - actually faster in some conditions...

Conflicted!

Millers Run race

Rob

Currently Think Evo II, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others I can't remember!

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5 years 10 months ago #9880 by semdoug
I know this is probably a stretch but can anyone compare the Swordfish with the Huki S1X and S1R?

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5 years 10 months ago - 5 years 10 months ago #9881 by Marieski
I can't do a Huki comparo but I can contrast the Swordfish with the Stellar SES. I've only had the two about 3 weeks. I am 168cm and 55kg and would class myself as intermediate in skill and a bit lacking in strength.

Essentially the SES is a bit faster on the flat but tippier. For me it is about 0.5km/hr faster over 1km. I haven't had totally flat conditions over 10km. Over this distance with .5m side chop they are pretty similar. Anything bigger the SF pulls right ahead.

Both give me far less trouble in a side wind than the V10S or the V10L did. The SF better because of the skinny bow.

Downwind they leap onto runs really easily. The SF is easier to recover in an intermittent quartering sea but the SES runs on better and possibly has less of a tendency to wallow.

Both are quite easy to remount, the SES easier than the SF which has the deeper bucket, but then I've only ever fallen out of the latter intentionally. The SES is easier to fall out of.

If I only had one boat, I'd have the SF because I can use it in a wider range of conditions and because it always puts a smile on your face. As I have 2, I use the SES as it challenges my stability more and the SF when I don't want to worry about worsening sea conditions and just have fun in bumpy stuff.

Past skis: Spirit PRS, EpicV10Sport Performance, Epic V10 Elite, Stellar SES Advantage. Current skis: Fenn Elite Spark, Fenn Swordfish vacuum. Custom Horizon, Epic V7

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5 years 10 months ago #9886 by tony h
any thoughts why EPIC have not bought into this market?
v10 sport has not even mentioned as comparison to SF / Vault / Evo2.......
suspect they will have to produce something faster than v10 sport to be comparable?

ski's in last 10yrs:
- Nelo 560L
- Epic: 1st/2ndG V10/10L/10 sport, V14, V12, V8, V7, double -v10/v8
- Stellar: SES 1G/2G, SEI 2G
- Fenn: double, elite SL, swordfish 1G/2G
- Carbonology: vault, atom, flash
- Also: hayden spec ski / gibbons oc. ski / red7 / stealth spec/ocean ski / think legend

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5 years 10 months ago #9887 by Dean Gardiner
Rob stick with the SWORD, I would race it in big downwind and believe it would be almost good as the top end boats. Dean Little used 1 in The Doctor and finished 21st in flat/side chop. He paired up with Matt Rees the next day and did really well in good downwind in the Finn Kayaks Relay. There is nothing macho about trying to stay upright. To me the SWORD is a racing boat made stable rather than a stable/beginner boat that has been made to go fast. The latter doesnt work as proven many times.

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5 years 10 months ago #9891 by Rightarmbad

any thoughts why EPIC have not bought into this market?
v10 sport has not even mentioned as comparison to SF / Vault / Evo2.......
suspect they will have to produce something faster than v10 sport to be comparable?


Or maybe it is just the time that paddlers finally recognise that you don't need to have an elite boat to have respect of other paddlers.
There are heaps of sport owners that take the sport bit of the decals off their boat.
That's what has really changed, public perception.

I would be seriously interested in a V10 sport/Swordfish shootout.

Epic were simply there first, Fenn are playing catchup but with the benefit of a mature market segment established by other makers.

Although I do suspect that the Swordfish is just a little faster in flat water, the winner wouldn't surprise me either way.

In the open, I've had V10 sport paddlers put up more of a fight than than the Swordfish paddler I am about to go for a paddle with.

Swordfish is the new kid on the block, paddlers perceptions have finally matured, of course they are going to create a stir.

Someone please do a comparo of the two boats side by side, I think everybody is interested in the results.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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5 years 10 months ago #9893 by robin.mousley
I spent a lot of time in the V10 Sport a couple of years ago and did Molokai in one.

That was one of the flat years (read: flat, hot and horrible) and I was under-trained for a 5 hour grind (had focussed on downwind paddling and was not expecting to wallow across the kaiwi channel).

At that time the Sport had a ridiculously wide cockpit that had velcro'ed pads on either side to keep you in, and (like all Epic seats until the V12) it impacted adversely on my coccyx.

And at the time, nearly three years ago, public perception of intermediate skis was such that I had a lurking macho attitude that said that the V10Sport was a sissy boat.

I'd be most interested also to get back into the V10S and to do a proper comparison with the SF. One problem is that to my knowledge there aren't any updated V10S here in Cape Town. The biggest change is that the cockpit has been radically improved and in my opinion the cockpit plays a huge factor in one's comfort and performance.

Rob

Currently Think Evo II, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others I can't remember!

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5 years 10 months ago #9894 by AR_convert

Rightarmbad wrote:

v10 sport has not even mentioned as comparison to SF / Vault / Evo2.......
suspect they will have to produce something faster than v10 sport to be comparable?

Someone please do a comparo of the two boats side by side, I think everybody is interested in the results.


I am really keen too to see the comparisons of the skis you mentioned RAB.

If I ever manage to find a suitable date around races we should be doing a comparison of these ski's on the flat in the next month or so. We have a discussion going on a local website trying to get it off the ground.

I am wrapt that many people are improving with their move to the Swordfish, I was yelling the intermediate ski message from the rooftops when I moved from an elite ski to the Vault 12 months ago and it seems that Fenns market presence has given the Swordfish the street cred to get more people trying them and coming to the same conclusions about the stability = speed equation.

I feel for quite a few people here in WA that have bought themselves big volume elite level skis that they find a handful in windy conditions. The geartrade website has quite a few elite level skis now on the market.

If I was a betting man I would anticipate Epic will have something in development.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Supersonic K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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5 years 10 months ago #9896 by tony h
thanks Rob, am planning to give the molokai a try in 2013!!
hope conditions more favourable than yours.........
have owned 3 x v10 sports & found even the z model (narrow one) is a little generous for a average size male (80-90kg) - prefer a snug fitting seat! I really enjoyed the swordfish which to me is faster & less stable but the seat doesn't suit my butt unfortunately in hour plus paddles!!
having owned 15+ skis now - 1st 6 all elite skis - I now comfortably prefer intermediate boats in the ocean.
paddling vault at present, but not certain it will be available to hire for molokai ?

ski's in last 10yrs:
- Nelo 560L
- Epic: 1st/2ndG V10/10L/10 sport, V14, V12, V8, V7, double -v10/v8
- Stellar: SES 1G/2G, SEI 2G
- Fenn: double, elite SL, swordfish 1G/2G
- Carbonology: vault, atom, flash
- Also: hayden spec ski / gibbons oc. ski / red7 / stealth spec/ocean ski / think legend

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5 years 10 months ago #9897 by Red
Ok, I am convinced. One swim on an elite ski wipes out any speed advantage it may have. Now just need to find an ex demo or second hand SWORD in Sydney so that I can afford to paddle and feed the family.

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5 years 10 months ago #9898 by Michael Smedley
I agree with Rob in that too many of us think we will look like a pussy on the start line in an intermediate style boat. I too have fallen into this trap twice.

However, how macho do you look when you fall off though the surf, or get beat by a country mile by a new paddler on intermediate style boat.

As a new paddler I really believe you need two boats to make a smooth transition from one to another. Sure, a newby can get an Elite style and persevere, but in my opinion this encourages poor form.

Start with an intermediate you can easily handle. Learn how to paddle and invest in some coaching if your serious. You will enjoy it more and not waste lots of valuable time learning bad habits and then learning to undo them

I have an Fenn Elite on the way to slowly upgrade from the SF. I also have a spec ski for mucking around in the surf. It costs a bit, but if its what you enjoy doing just sell the car or something. paddling is way more important. :)

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5 years 10 months ago #9899 by AR_convert

Michael Smedley wrote: but if its what you enjoy doing just sell the car or something. paddling is way more important. :)


Had to laugh at this, I gave away another hobby (motorcycle riding) selling my motorbike to help fund this sport and cycling, it really is addictive upgrading ski's and gear if you are the competitive type;)...no complaints from my wife either giving away motorcycling.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Supersonic K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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5 years 10 months ago #9900 by patrickswitz
For years when I was learning to paddle, I was on a tight budget, never spent more than a few hundred bucks on a boat, and raced on some pretty beat up shitty equipment. Now I have some decent skills and feel pretty good almost all the time on a 17 inch ski (v12). there are still days however when it's really messy when I wish I had my old v10 sport. As far as the ego thing goes, it's way better to line up on a "pussy" boat and then kill it, then line up on a killer boat and completely puss out because you're in over your head. I've done it both ways. Plus it's really sweet to be able to just float around on the start line like the Queen Mary and scratch your balls/ eat a sandwich or whatever and relax. I miss that....

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5 years 10 months ago #9904 by Steve Hansen
How about reversing the experiment.How much slower would Dawid be on a Miller's run in a swordfish? What is the advantage of an elite ski in the hands of an expert?

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5 years 10 months ago #9906 by Rightarmbad
I like

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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5 years 10 months ago #9910 by [email protected]
Having a long hard look at this thread. Rob is impartial and I'm listening to what he has to say.

RAB - Agree with you. Epic's v10s was probably the first true intermediate ski. Basically faster than an XT and slower than a v10/mako6 (at the time). From what I've been reading though, I think the SF is a step up from that 'intermediary' league. Ive paddled a v10s in Boston last year and boy that thing gets heavy after a while.

Ski classifications are at present 'novice - intermediate - elite'. I think we need another class in there between intermediate and elite (and reserve the latter for the real skinnies - the usual suspects). This would also help the ego/macho aspect. I'd rather be seen on the starting line-up with a 'sub-elite' ski than an intermediate ski.

I was reminded quite recently that only about 10% (at most) of (normal) races will be truly downwind. The remainder (and most training paddles) will be in a mix of conditions ranging from flat, cross, into and downwind. If it was a simple thing of being guaranteed a downwind (or dead flat) every time, I'd stay with my 10kg ski forever - but reality dictates otherwise. with some time in the bucket anyone can paddle an elite ski downwind and in the flat.

Quoting the immortal 1986 Top Gun 'Son, your ego is writing cheques your body cant cash'. So yeah - and without admitting any liability of being an utterly crap paddler - I'd give the SF a go!

Cheers

S.S.

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