Soft spot on new v10 ultra

7 years 1 week ago #17418 by Love2ski
I love my new v10 ultra. But today I was pulling the boat bag off and I found a big soft spot. It is on the side of the hull about a foot back from the nose. It is about 15 cm in diameter and super crunchy. The retailer I got it from said it was a warranty job, and that the honeycomb did not get enough epoxy. They were pretty relaxed about it and have taken the boat.

It's the first time I've had this type of issue. Is it something that just happens from time to time. Apparently the repairer will inject epoxy into the area and it will be fine. Is this the right way to fix it? We can't find any other issues on the boat. Should I be asking that the boat be replaced?

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7 years 1 week ago #17419 by Kayaker Greg
I would be asking for it to be replaced if it was me. Hope your not in Australia.

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7 years 1 week ago #17420 by Love2ski
Yep, I'm in Sydney. I guess repair not replacement then. I'm ok if the repair works well. I'd love some guidance on soft spots as I haven't had one before. Are they a big deal? Does one spot mean there will be more?

Thanks

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7 years 1 week ago #17421 by AR_convert

Love2ski wrote: I love my new v10 ultra. But today I was pulling the boat bag off and I found a big soft spot. It is on the side of the hull about a foot back from the nose.


You'd think something like that would be picked up when they polish the boat up, unless they use a motorized buffer instead of hand polishing it. Whatever you do don't put it on Youtube ;)

Good chance to see how well this is resolved.

When I unpack a new ski I go over it inch by inch with a polishing rag so I can apply pressure and check it. I'd suggest the same with anyone buying a used ski, soft spots are often not visible to the eye.

Current - Carbonology"Flash" Vajda "Infusion II K1" Previously ~Finn"Molokai Mk II"~Knysna "Vantage Pro K1' Carbonology "Vault"~Epic"V10L & Sport"~ [/b]Fenn"Mill Double" ~Spirit"PRS"~Finn"Affinity"
Always looking for the next boat :)

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7 years 1 week ago #17422 by Love2ski
I think the retailer will be fine. I bought the ski from them only a couple of weeks ago so it's brand new. I'm very careful with my gear so I know I've not done any damage.

They have already said its warranty and have taken the ski. To be honest even if they came back and said it was impact damage and not warranty it wouldn't be the end of the world. I can't see the repair being too expensive.

The main issue for me is how serious this type of thing is in a ski. Fortunately I have been able to get some independent advice from a repairer I trust. He has assured me the ski will be fine, and has said the epic repairer is very good.

I am annoyed that such an expensive product can be shipped with such a defect, but I think it will turn out fine and I think the service from epic will be good.

My next new ski I will be checking for soft spots!

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7 years 1 week ago #17425 by Rightarmbad
Mine is soft and crackles and has already had resin injected into it before it was shipped.
The injection points are still visible and you can see the honeycomb pattern where it has filled with resin and now prints through.
Unfortunately, directly above the top injection point and between the injection and the seam, there is more delamination that has been missed in the factory? repair, and has since shown due to stresses of paddling as it appeared solid when I examined it in the shop when picking it up.
I had no idea what the blemish on the tail was on my boat, that later went soft and crackly, but took it home after swallowing the cosmetic defect bullshit and simply wanted my ski after waiting so bloody long for it to turn up, not suspecting it would develop into anything.
I recently paddled with an experienced composite engineer and he informed me of what it was, as nobody locally that looked at it could figure out what could cause such a weird looking blemish.
He has since offered and then emailed me a full engineers report without my asking, should I wish to follow up with legal action.

Take it back and get another one.
It's crap, you bought a new boat, you got a defective one.
Your retailer will not be a problem.
Problems will stem from Epic Australia and place the retailer in a hopeless sandwich position.

They rely on making it hard and taking just too much time out of your life to bother with complaining and just hope that you will go away.
That's just how they roll.

To put a little bit of closure to this topic for anybody that read the original thread, and it seems that was almost everybody in the surfski world, I took my boat back after a soft spot developed in the hull just in front of the bucket.

I took it back and the retailer repaired it without my consent after Epic refused warranty.
He did this believing he was offering superior warranty service and looking after a good customer.

The repair done was excellent.

When picking it up after repair(some 6 weeks), I was inspecting the hull whilst the retailer was busy with customers and found that the previous inoxious looking blemish on the tail was soft and crackly when pushed on.

That's when the bullshit started as I left the boat there and wanted it repaired.


Now to skip forward a long way to today, I have since found out that unknown to me, somebody had snuck into my shed and hit the ski in front of the bucket to create the original soft spot that made me take the ski in for warranty, I have proof of this (he admitted in a fit of rage) and have video footage of the individual from my gopro sat on the rear deck of my car of my car later entering my shed and messing with another of my skis.

My shed now sports a lovely big new lock.

So the original soft spot I returned it for, was in fact impact damage.
This in no way changes the current soft spot or the cracking around the bailer.

Could I do something legal here, yes.
But in reality, there are more important and productive things to do with my time when I know that the repair will not be a large price to do, and that, now that I know that the big soft spot that made me concerned for the rest of the hull was in fact a hit from an idiot, and I am no longer concerned for the rest of the hull and a few weeks ago simply started paddling it again.

I did have to epoxy it's rudder which developed the same turning rudder shaft syndrome of my previous V10 rudders.
This time though i just drilled a couple of holes in the top and filled it up with epoxy.

If you want to take you boat further, be assured that there are others that already have done so and this makes your task much easier as it is all logged with fair claims and they start handing out fines after a very few such complaints.

Just be prepared for a complete waste of valuable time because Epic Australia has proven that denying warranty and making the customer chase is their preferred method of dealing with anything but a sale.(just ask around, when you find a problem with your boat, we all come out of the woodwork)

Last laugh is on them, as I have not repaired my ski and won't until it looks like it starts to progress into anything more sinister.
Right now I have real live pokey crackly ski for anybody that wants to prod it and have certainly lost at least two sales from me, and a few sales from people that have paddled with me.

I paddled with a guy from Sydney and his mate who had just moved here.
I loaned them my V10 for the local to try and the new local loaned the Sydneysider his V8 to use.

He commented, 'so you're an Epic man then', when he saw me turn up with two Epic ski's.
Nup, I replied, and then showed him my boat and the rest of the story was told in general conversation.

'So I should just go around the corner and get a Fenn then', was the locals reply.

Cheers from RAB, who is chuckling and enjoying his softness and wondering how a company can have such incompetent warranty policies in such a small word of mouth market.




Pity, because the new Epic models look pretty good......but you will never see me buy another one.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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7 years 1 week ago #17426 by 1xsculler
I have owned several Epics and they have been flawless so I never had to deal with their warranty.

Stellar/USA is, well, STELLAR concerning warranty. Totally awesome customer support and service. I'd buy another Stellar any time.

current skis: SES Ultra. sculling boats: Fluidesign Lwt, Wintech, Empacher.

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7 years 1 week ago #17428 by Rob1
Replied by Rob1 on topic Re: Soft spot on new v10 ultra
I'll keep this simply for you RAB, you have absolutely no credit, you're dishonest and a disgrace, go away.

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7 years 1 week ago #17429 by Bigdog
RAB You have got to be kidding!!!! Do you even read the rubbish you write??????
You accuse Epic of not repairing ski under warranty that you admit your neighbour damaged, your words nobody else's. In one of your previous war and peace rants it was determined by a repairer that it was impact damage which caused the problem with your ski not the manufacturer's fault, yet you still continue to slander the Epic name and continue your threat of legal action against an Epic warranty claim. Turns out the repairer may have been correct does it not???
RAB You actually need to take the skis off your roof to paddle them and actually put them in the water just driving around with them on the roof of your car doesn't count as a paddle.
For everybody's sake please go back under the rock that you've been hiding under these last few months.

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7 years 1 week ago #17430 by Love2ski
Please dont turn this into a big slanging match. I just wanted some feedback on soft spots because I am worried about the one on my new v10. At this stage I have had nothing but support from my retailer and I bought the v10 because it is very thoughtfully designed.

My concern is whether soft spots are just a one off on a boat caused by incorrect layup in that area, or is it a sign that they whole layup will fail. If it is the later then I need to ask for the boat to be replaced.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kayaker Greg

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7 years 1 week ago #17431 by Kayaker Greg
Who knows and it shouldn't be your concern, you should be given a new ski. Will you though? I don't think so, love to be proven wrong.

Next time look for a brand that warranty's their hulls for two years against this type of failure.

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7 years 1 week ago #17437 by Simon Haywood
Love2ski, Sorry to hear your woe...

I am no composite expert - but I do have reasonable experience as an owner of Kevlar Skis, to date 7 - three brands.

I've had 4 Epic's in Ultra configuration(Red Nose). Your soft spot you describe sounds more like a delamination - If that has happened by freak of natural occurrence and not a result of an impact of some sorts since you've had it - sometimes the damage is not instantly recognisable. If so, I doubt whether injecting resin between the outer laminate and the honeycombe core will do much more than add weight and make the softness/crunch disappear for awhile(maybe) - a quick fix, not neccessarily a long term fix.

I believe...if you've made no contribution to the soft spot I would ask your retailer to please replace the ski - It can only be a couple of months old...You've paid extra for the lightness of the "Ultra" spec - you should be able to enjoy it.

If the retailer does replace your ski - Please post it here - I personally would love to hear a good news story about a retailer doing the right thing!

Previous craft: Affinity, Endorfinn, Multisport, Epic V8, V10sport, V10, V12, Fenn Swordfish, Spirit PRS Elite; Stellar S18S, SR, SE, SEL, S2E, S2EL

Current Skis:
Huki S1-R
Stellar S18S - Excel
Stellar SR - Ultra


Skis on order: None!

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7 years 1 week ago #17438 by Love2ski
Thanks Simon, appreciate your views. The ski is only a couple of weeks old, and came straight from the epic factory. I wish I had damaged it, then it would simply be a repair which i could go and get fixed. However I simply cant think of any time it has been knocked to that extent. To do that much damage would require a healthy whack or a kick and I haven't had that happen. I only had the ski on flat water, with a couple of runs into small swell.

I wish it was damage rather than poor workmanship, because it puts the whole ski into question, and means I have to do the warranty repair/return thing which I dont want to do.

Its worth remembering that this ski costs $A4700 in sydney and I paid full rate.

Again the retailer has been great so far and they need a chance to sort it out.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Simon Haywood

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7 years 1 week ago #17439 by Simon Haywood
Yes, the retailer needs a chance to do the right thing. Hopefully, yours will (mine didn't - hence, I paddle on Stellars now!)

Previous craft: Affinity, Endorfinn, Multisport, Epic V8, V10sport, V10, V12, Fenn Swordfish, Spirit PRS Elite; Stellar S18S, SR, SE, SEL, S2E, S2EL

Current Skis:
Huki S1-R
Stellar S18S - Excel
Stellar SR - Ultra


Skis on order: None!

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7 years 1 week ago - 7 years 1 week ago #17443 by tony h
all brands have the odd bad ski - trust me I have tried most of them.
don't listen to self interested individuals - RAB lives to inflame others & lacks credibility
give the manufacturer a chance to address issues
unfortunately wear & tear with use or transport can cloud warranty issues
I know most of my damaged ski's have resulted from transporting them
we ask alot from these fragile craft.
we could procure a plastic one which would be nearly indestructible but would weigh 30+kg (I did manage to wrap a plastic ski around a bridge pilon once)
so perhaps in the quest for speed we choose fragile craft & need to accept that every time there is damage it is not always a warranty issue

ski's - McGregor C/R // Nelo 560L // Epic: 1st/2nd/3rdG V10/10L/10 sport, V14, V12, V8, V7, double -v10/v8 // Stellar: SES 1G/2G, SEI 2G // Fenn: double, elite SL, swordfish 1G/2G // Carbonology: vault, atom, flash //hayden spec ski / gibbons oc. ski / red7 / stealth spec/ocean ski / think legend

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7 years 6 days ago - 7 years 6 days ago #17450 by fredrik
But to look at from the other side...do you accept that the ski manufacturers/importers to sell a faulty ski with soft spot(s), and repair it without a discount?

Or should/could you expect a flawless ski as it is take out of the store for the first time?

I believe we should expect the ski to be flawless at day one. If it is not flawless we should get another flawless ski - no repairs accepted (unless agreed by buyer)


With all the stories told, I would think the importers would benefit from detailed inspection of all skis when they receive and sell them. Damage can easily happen during handling locally (often in cramped storage)

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7 years 6 days ago - 7 years 6 days ago #17455 by tony h
agreed Frederik, ideally all ski's should be sold after good quality control.
i have experienced your local travel damage.

however we have vocal people who have gone to unethical lengths claiming manufacturers have failed them, only later admitting that someone had got into their shed & knocked their ski around (on more than one occasion) - at least RAB is consistent (consistently hard to believe)

delamination / soft spots can occur from poor construction or impact damage - how do we tell these causes apart?

surely, as you said, we have an onus to inspect our ski's before hand & maintain a good relationship with our supplier - ultimately they want to keep our business!

ski's - McGregor C/R // Nelo 560L // Epic: 1st/2nd/3rdG V10/10L/10 sport, V14, V12, V8, V7, double -v10/v8 // Stellar: SES 1G/2G, SEI 2G // Fenn: double, elite SL, swordfish 1G/2G // Carbonology: vault, atom, flash //hayden spec ski / gibbons oc. ski / red7 / stealth spec/ocean ski / think legend

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7 years 6 days ago #17458 by fredrik
Normally I believe the benefit of doubt should be to the customers advantage. Thus, the importer/store should be prudent and inspect each ski in good faith right before delivery and urge/insist/invite the customer do the same before accepting it. Particularly the more delicate layups.

It is NOT good enough in my mind that the importer/store assume that all skis are perfect, and automatically insist that all damages are customer "error". I have stated before that I also believe the brands (Epic, Think etc) should implement better quality control with their factories. We all know that China and Thailand factories have had some poor quality issus in the past, so why deny it. That is always a poor approach. Again to protect the customer, importer/seller from bad experiences and brands reputation.

Personally, I have had 3 skis from the same brand, all with soft spots (glass and kevlar) after 3-6 months . The importer swapped one ski and fixed the other one, so I can´t complain with his attention. But when contacting the brand, they declined that it could be a manufacturing issue. My next 3 carbon skis from another brand have been 100% solid (zero issues and zero drops of water inside). Bad luck and good luck, maybe - but I don´t want to take a 4th shot with the first brand. (I did inspect the last 2 skis with more detail and found no issues).

OK, bad apples will pop up, and should be kicked out, but it would be awful to wrongly assume that a honest customer is a crook as well. How many RABs could it possibly be out there :-)
The following user(s) said Thank You: tony h

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7 years 6 days ago #17459 by 1xsculler
If you're going to try to repair a soft spot yourself here are my suggestions.
1. Find out from the manufacturer of your ski what the layup of your hull is, i.e. how many and of what material the outer layer is, if there is a core what is it and what are the inner layers?
2. by carefully feeling all over the soft spot try to determine how deep it is, i.e. is it deep enough to expect that the core is damaged or is it simply a delamination of some or all of the outer layers? This may help you determine about how much resin you need to inject. If you think you're going to have to inject a lot of resin I'd thicken it with one of West's lightweight additives.
3. If the soft spot is in an area where there is a lot of contour to the hull you will need to sand a piece of wood, which is the same size as the defect, so it has a concave surface the same as the hull in the defective area. One way to do this is to tape a sheet of 40 grit sandpaper to your hull over an area that has about the same contour as the defective hull area and rub the piece of wood across the sandpaper until it is the same shape as the hull. This provides you with a form to press the hull back to its original contour while the resin cures.
If the soft spot is in a fairly flat area a simple sheet of plastic or Plexiglas about 1/8" thick will work pretty well so long as it will bend to the approximate contour you want to end up with.
4. Drill a .050" (slightly over 1mm) hole in each end of the defect, one at the bottom and the other at the top, being careful to only go through the material that has blistered up. Place a little sanding dust over the holes and pump the blister to determine if each hole communicates with each other and with the air in the blister and to determine if the blister doesn't communicate with the inside of the hull. Hopefully there is no moisture in the blister. If there is I'd probably inject alcohol into the blister and pump it back and forth in hopes of drying the inside of the blister out.
4. Mix up West System 105/205 and using a 20 ga. medical needle and plastic Leurlock syringe (you could also use a needle that dentists use to dispense composite filling material) Be sure to test the needle to determine if the 105/205 mixed epoxy will flow out. Inject it into the bottom hole until it comes out the top hole. Place a resin releasing wax on the surface of the hull near the holes so the epoxy resin doesn't stick to the gelcoat or whatever surface you have.
5. Position your board or plastic, secure it with boat transporting straps and try to find a way to get them really, really tight by using wedges, weights or a lever system if possible. Let it cure for twenty-four hours.
6. Use your imagination to adapt these suggestions to your situation.

current skis: SES Ultra. sculling boats: Fluidesign Lwt, Wintech, Empacher.

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7 years 6 days ago #17460 by davewilson
Judge Judy has presided, but all cred to Rabid who has been honest in providing accurate closure to the original thread in this forum and admitting no- not an epic manufacturing defect in that instance.

But the epic australia fanboys need to see the elephant is still in the room - Love2 another new ski with a problem. I would not be happy with a repair after paying a premium for the most expensive ski on the market.

From previous comment Simon H (exactly) me too now paddle a stellar

New V10 is galloping out of the containers though and is a well designed thing,

Why do the epics cost more ?

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