Reverse bows

3 years 10 months ago - 2 years 11 months ago #24998 by Uffilation
Reverse bows was created by Uffilation
Yep, I got hooked by those reverse bows ...
Did I miss any? tia

OCEAN: OSS1 -OSS4
oceansurfski dot com
(Felci Windseeker > Code Zero)

CODE ZERO, CODE 2.0
FG Canoe & Kayaks, Cagliari, Sadinia, IT

OCEANBUILT: Kona, Konastorm
oceanbuilt dot com

OPIUM X-Bow
caiaquesopium dot com.br

Point 65: XP21, Bourbon Orca (out of production)
surfski.info search > point-65-bourbon-orca-design-notes.html
youtube > search TcGYdYZVrIg + YFZKwiWiRHM

SIPRE: Sea Vortex, Ackua Fun, Ackua Veloce, Ackua 560,
kayaksipre dot com

REVO, revokayaks dot dom, Greg de Beyer
Durban, South Africa

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3 years 10 months ago #25010 by kwolfe
Replied by kwolfe on topic Reverse bows
Yeah, they are very cool looking. However not really sure I would call them true reverse bows. They are more of wave piercing bows since the actual hull shape pretty much stays the same underneath. Still very cool though. I can imagine that it would drastically reduce planing and cut through the water much efficiently.

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3 years 10 months ago #25080 by downwinda
Replied by downwinda on topic Reverse bows
I think the wave piercing or reverse bow will enable the paddler to drop in on waves and despite pearling, be able to keep up speed and not lose the wave. After all, if the top profile is knife like, it should slice through the water without losing much speed. It will also pop out quicker when you lean back. Most skis now have somewhat rounded decks that will shed water, but when completely buried they really slow down.

Furthermore, when surfing and connecting bumps, you will be able to punch through the top section of the wave in front rather than having to climb all the way up and over it.

I've never tried a true reverse bow, but I do have an outrigger with a very narrow domed nose that I've found these points I've brought up hold true for.

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3 years 10 months ago #25084 by rudie
Replied by rudie on topic Reverse bows
For real reverse bows
They would really suck collecting weed. No way to get it off without paddling backward, bouncing the bow up and down wouldn't work. The weed would just hang there building up and up.
I have enough trouble with raked bows collecting weed.
Me and my worthless opinion.
I think these bows would make no difference in handling. Save weight and that would be negligible.
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3 years 10 months ago #25085 by photofr
Replied by photofr on topic Reverse bows
Yes, I agree that a true reverse bow will be prone to collecting more weed, but placed into context, we could say the same thing about all surfski rudders (at least to a certain extent).

It's a fact that the northwest of France is getting hammered with more and more weed, but nothing to really worry here when paddling offshore, in open ocean.

I think it's gonna be one of those things: gotta a try it. Should be really interesting.

Ludovic
(Brittany, France)

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3 years 10 months ago #25086 by red_pepper
Replied by red_pepper on topic Reverse bows
They look interesting, but I can't see any real advantage. Where I paddle they would be very problematic, even if they're basically plumb bows with a reverse deck line (which is what at least some of the "reverse bow" skis on the market really are if you look at them as they're being paddled). Reverse bows, plumb bows and even raked bows, as noted by Rudie, tend to be bad at collecting weeds and leaves and really bad if you happen to run into a log or rock beneath the surface. One reason I paddle Stellar skis these days is the bows are designed to glide over all that stuff - and they work well at it. I never have to bounce leaves, etc. off the bow. I go with a small weedless under-stern rudder or even a kick-up over-stern when conditions warrant. In the open ocean weed collection isn't likely to be an issue, but I still fail to see a hydrodynamic advantage provided the waterline is the same length and all else is equal.
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3 years 10 months ago #25087 by OSS
Replied by OSS on topic Reverse bows
There is a reason why we use a "hybrid" bow. The bow allows for more speed (longer waterline), does not collect extra more weed than any other bow (I admit we haven't tested the ski in "extreme" weed conditions yet) but when in it's element (e.g. downwind), the volume in the lower part pushes the ski up which allows for easier manoeuvring in the surf (hence the name "surfski").
But like it is with every design, we had to compromise and did not allow for "rock" surfing, something which unfortunately sometimes happens. We assume that around 98% of all paddlers will have more fun with the hybrid/reverse bow (in flat and downwind) while the remaining 2% may have a real disadvantage.
We think that is a good compromise!

New, innovative, different!

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3 years 10 months ago #25088 by photofr
Replied by photofr on topic Reverse bows
Unless you have a plastic boat, I fail to see how a surfski (any surfski) will excel in rocks.
(yope… I just had my coffee, and my brain is sharp as a whistle this morning)
:)

Ludovic
(Brittany, France)

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3 years 10 months ago #25091 by zachhandler
Replied by zachhandler on topic Reverse bows

OSS wrote: ...The bow allows for more speed (longer waterline)... volume in the lower part pushes the ski up which allows for easier manoeuvring


Maybe I am wrong but it seems like you can't have it both ways. Usually longer waterline gives more speed, but for easier turning you want shorter waterline and more rocker.

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3 years 10 months ago #25092 by OSS
Replied by OSS on topic Reverse bows
Hi Zachhandler,

come for a test paddle - you'll be surprised!

OSS

New, innovative, different!

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3 years 10 months ago #25093 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic Reverse bows
Worrying about collecting leaves and weed is a ridiculous comment because you have a huge weed collector sitting under your boat and the shape of the nose if you do collect weed will lift it out of the water where it won't do any harm. These things are designed for downwind ocean paddling. If there are leaves, you are using them out of purpose. The biggest benefit of that nose will be the lack of wind resistance when paddling across wind. Most skis struggle with that to some extent.
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3 years 10 months ago #25094 by zachhandler
Replied by zachhandler on topic Reverse bows
Seriously Dicko?

There are a lot of paddlers who contend with weeds and leaves. Namely just about every single surfski paddler in Europe and North America. There are thousands of surfski paddlers that live nowhere near the sea. Even those that live near the sea often choose to train on flat water for a variety of reasons. Many places in the ocean have thick beds of kelp and other weeds. That is why they make weedless rudders, right?

This thread of logic surfaces from time to time on this forum; basically an assertion that if you are not on a tropical beach then you have no business in a surfski.

Rubbish. Surfski has expanded to the rest of the world. I would view that as a good thing.
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3 years 10 months ago #25095 by Dicko
Replied by Dicko on topic Reverse bows
Seriously. The day we start designing surfski's so that we're more concerned with their ability to shed leaves than surf is a sad day for surfski. We can change the name to "flatwaterleafsheddingskis". The current crop of low rocker flat water rocket skis that can only be paddled by a few elite level paddlers is not good for surf ski in my opinion.
It is good for the large manufacturers cos they sell more boats. We need a separate forum
flatwaterleafsheddingskis.info. That should keep everyone happy.

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3 years 10 months ago #25096 by zachhandler
Replied by zachhandler on topic Reverse bows
Good stuff!

How about "intermediateskisforcurmudgeons.info"?

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3 years 10 months ago #25097 by rudie
Replied by rudie on topic Reverse bows
I think maybe the reference for the reverse bow doesn't really apply to these OSS as its only the tip of the deck that tapers down. The hull's bow is pretty vertical. In my mind the Saphire ( I think that what they were called) skis, now they have a reverse bow. So yes the rudder collects weed for sure, but we can always use a raked rudder to help clear it when you slow up a bit or it just falls off. The protruding hull bow, if the weed collects on its protruding point there is no way the weed will fall off with out stopping and paddling backwards.
So to those who have clean ocean water, good for you, your very lucky. There are some of us that have lots of Kelp sea weed and sea grass everywhere. With any vertical bows and near vertical rudders its a total pain. We always use raked rudders and bows. This doesn't make it 100% weed free but close to it.
Plus for the exact same reason my K1's don't have vertical bow noses. In the rivers the weed problem is the same. Think the Kayak Centre Assassin K1. Raked bow to prevent weed getting caught on the nose.
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3 years 10 months ago #25099 by Fath2o
Replied by Fath2o on topic Reverse bows
Hey Rob,

Been a long time since we've seen a surfski review from you. Kinda a miss those.
Any chance you can get your hands on one of these OSS skis for a review.
It might help to settle some of the claims and critiques of the design.
I'd love to hear more about this ski from a third party who has actually paddled it in real downwind conditions. Oh yeah, can you do some paddling through some kelp?

Thanks, Kirk

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3 years 10 months ago #25101 by kwolfe
Replied by kwolfe on topic Reverse bows
rudie,
Totally with you on this one. The bow is really much like an Epic bow with the top ground down. Would probably help when piercing through waves/wakes but it is definitely not a reverse bow.

Sorry Dicko, but many of us here don't have an ocean nearby. My closest is 3.5hrs without traffic. I know, sucks to be me but I have to settle for 2ft swell on a windy lake day. Never the less, I love my surfski and don't find any reason why they shouldn't design skis for flat water paddlers. To say that they should be designed for downwind only is just going to kill the sport. K1s are a totally different animal and I would much rather have a ski instead of a kayak.

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3 years 10 months ago #25106 by sAsLEX
Replied by sAsLEX on topic Reverse bows

kwolfe wrote: rudie,
Totally with you on this one. The bow is really much like an Epic bow with the top ground down. Would probably help when piercing through waves/wakes but it is definitely not a reverse bow.


Heavy seas and a reverse bow -


The oss doesn't look too different (general layout) to the Bourbon Orca bow, with that initial vertical section.

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3 years 10 months ago #25110 by downwinda
Replied by downwinda on topic Reverse bows
I like the nostril like drain hole! B)

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3 years 10 months ago #25112 by merijnwijnen
Replied by merijnwijnen on topic Reverse bows
The "reverse"is not the main difference with other boats. Unlike most skis the ocean boats do not seem to have any V-sections, they are rounded even at the extremities of the bow and stern. This probably means that they carry more volume low in the water.
It also might have impact on directional behaviour, as the rounded section might slide easier left and right. I am just conjecturing, but if they are able to have easier release on bow and stern with these rounded sections, they can use less rocker and achieve the same directional behaviour. Usually less rocker equals higher flat water top speeds, as it increases the Cp. As less rocker also means a larger wetted surface area (keeping all cross-sections equal), it increases resistance at low speeds. Again no free lunch.

Just saying it is an EPIC bow with to top altered does not justice to the details. If it works only time will tell, but the OCEAN guys seem to have spend a considerable effort on these kind of details.

Seakayak, flatwater racing and a surfski on order.
Looking for other ski paddlers in South East Netherlands (Maas / Waal)

Surfski: Nelo 560 on order :-)
K1:Kirton Tor
Sea kayak: NDK Explorer HV
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