RAB's punch up thread!

OK guys.

Here is a place where you can come along and throw as much crap as you like.
That way threads don't have to get dragged off topic.

Feel free to call me any name you want, tell me how big an idiot I am or whatever you wish.

Hell, (sorry Bermy, but this is a special thread where anything goes), lets make it non exclusive, that way we can all participate.

Brings the community together and all that.

So if you got a beef with somebody, put it in here and see if they will bite and entertain us some.

This way, anybody that doesn't want to see this sort of crap in the general forums, can simply ignore this one and everything will seem hunky dory.

Those of us that want some biff action, well go for it, sometimes it good to get those things out of your system.












Slips off to buy popcorn.......

BOLLOCKS ! (sp ?)

Is it true that paddlers in Australia are faster because of the increased salinity of the water the closer one is to the South Pole? I can't think of any other reason why a bunch of Aussies would be any faster than paddlers in Hawaii.

Aloha from the Territories

I reckon you're spot on. Have an Aussie mate here that keeps on talking of 12-13kph average speeds but can't keep it up over 11 here. He says we have 'dead water'.

Seen some guys on this site claim they're intermediate paddlers (on glass boats) doing 12kph ave speeds over long distances. Whats with that. I'll be landing in Aus in the month and will then give the final judgement. Either busting that myth - and calling them out or (hopefully) joining them as 12kph paddler

On a flat out and back river course, I'm good for 11.9 in training without anybody to push me.

But the ocean is always quicker, I think that it is something to do with the fact that we have something called wind and waves over here.





Oh and the odd shark improves speed endlessly.

Yea, I hear ya. We don't have wind or waves up here, not any sharks either. It is, after all, 'Paradise". When paddling into the wind, at what point do you guys just throw in the towel and turn around? I've been out off south maui, alakeiki channel, pulling as hard as I could, the landscape was going in the wrong direction, finally just did a 180 and pulled into the beach a few miles down.. I was all set to go out this morning, but it's crankin out there already.... If I ever hear of any waves or sharks up here, I'll let you know.... I am kind of across the Island from this place called "Jaws" though, wonder what thats all about?

Aloha from the Territories

How to improve your boat speed if you can't afford a plane ticket to Oz:

1. Keep meticulous GPS records of every training session/ race including conditions, perceived effort, what you ate for breakfast etc.

2. Amass several hundred hours of data, then analyze. Graphs are good. Correlate against your erg sessions if you think you can handle the mainline rush of pure data weenie omniscience.

3. Blink back tears because your data is clearly flawed. There's no way you're that slow.

4. Subconsciously cherry pick your best sessions which were probably running with the wind or current.

5. Rationalize your behavior. Smart people like us have no problems with this last step. Presto! You're a 12+ km/hr paddler. Share the news with like minded dorks who obsess over this stuff on forums, me included.

RAB only blinks back tears of joy.....his data is never flawed.

The 2 big stories for this year.
RAB finally gets a new boat. It's like waiting for the final book in the Harry Potter series. Much anticipated.
RAB's first race report. Reality hits home. (geez, I hope he doesn't win cos I'll have to change my boat, my paddle and worst of all probably have to buy a bloody camera).

Most overated thread of the year. Tempo v technique where the final conclusion seems to be ....if you paddle faster, pull harder and improve your technique the boat will go faster.....or something like that.

Yes, I was just thinking of RAB's new boat yesterday. The anticipation is killing me, what's the hold up?

RAB is waiting for sanity to arrive at Epic, after which Epic will lower the prices of their carbon skis and RAB can buy another carbon V10. No, like that's gonna happen! We better find out if RAB had a long lost rich uncle/aunt that left him a fortune!

RAB, you should apply for Government funding to make a documentary. "RAB needs a boat, one mans search for perfection". If anyone can pull it off, you could.
I know of a girl who applied for funding to film a docu of her trip across the Nullabor to watch a surfing contest over east....ansd got it.

I don't need government funding, I have a gopro.

As of today, RAB's ski fund now has more than enough to buy any ski, but it won't be a new Epic.
The value is shite.
Why pay $6000 for an Epic when I can get a Fenn SL for $4200. Or an Elite for $3400. That's Straight advertised price.

The only way I would get another Epic is second hand.
The good things for the Epic, are;

I like the bucket and proven to be able to sit comfy in the things for hours.
I have spare rudders in my paddle box.
Familiarity of my V10.

So interested in a near new right priced carbon V10 or 12, but new? Simply not worth it.

Bring on the new test paddles now that I have my paddle legs again.
I will begin my search anew next week.

I will also get a couple of paddles for experimenting with.

And just to spur things on, my repaired boat has gel coat cracks on the repaired seams that weep water and there is a 3" long crack on the bottom where it was repaired and strengthened with carbon, the crack is on the very edge of the carbon.
Again, it weeps water.

I stayed off the boat for a couple of days and put some heli tape on them to stop it seeping water.

Good enough to keep me going until I decide.


Dicko, my data is always floored, I do try and say so when it seriously could effect the conclusion I end up coming to.

First race, as always will be a discovery thing, well prepared to come last.
Finish, but find out where things are won or lost will be the goal.
Although if a 50+ beginner in a spec ski beats me, I may just give up and get back on my bike.

Except I broke the frame a few days ago, lucky, I had just done s lot of serious climbing and descending, then headed out along the flat and stopped thinking I had a flat back tyre, only to discover the frame had sheared clean through.

If it had of happened 5km before, I would have been shooting off downhill into the trees around 78kmh.

Holonalu, I read a book on waves, scientific but also with a backdrop of following surfers around the world as well as ocean ships in the search for the big ones.

Pffttt, 100ft waves, bring it on baby. Don't need no jetskis to come and rescue me either.

Jaws was mentioned, along with the motley crew that hang out and wait for the thing to crank.

Also read somewhere that all the top Hawiian surfers were drug mules bringing cocaine into the happy land with their globe trotting antics.

Probably explains why they venture into waves that could pulverize their brain and body into catfood.


Patrick, cherry picking data is a well proven strategy in maintaining ones self esteem.

If I can pick just three paddles, I'm a 15+kmh paddler.

Just ignore the 8kmh slap over the waves heading into it runs.

All Hawaiian top surfers are drug mules? I know some of those guys, the LG's who work and surf the north shore of Maui. You're way off base with that remark, but sounds like your style. See ya.............................

Thanks for the dig on the Tempo thread, Dicko. I’ll take it in the true RAB beatup spirit.

I happily agree with you that the conclusion states the obvious but the point made is vital: Stroke speed is dominant – but not the only consideration. Technique will add or subtract speed from what you should achieve at a specified tempo.

When you think that conclusion through a bit more, you come to all kinds of interesting possibilities: surfskiers could potentially start to measure how efficient or inefficient their stroke is.

The rowing coaches come up with a target boat speed for a particular stroke tempo. They then measure what speed the rower is actually achieving. The difference between the two lets them measure how in/efficient the rower’s stroke is. They can then target their training on either tempo or technique as needed.

Surf-skiers could do the same. We just need to develop an accurate benchmark for the target boat speed for a particular stroke tempo. (You could probably work this out theoretically by dividing speed by the standard stroke length for a paddler).

On the other matter, I have heard a rumour that RAB is actually a female Russian computer geek living in central Siberia writing paid industry commentary on behalf of a multinational surf-ski manufacturer….I wouldn’t believe that though.

Stroke speed is the resultant, not the reason for speed.

Holonalo, say hello to Hamilton for me would you.

This debate is deja vu all over again for us Hawaiian paddlers. I'll descend into the steamy details in a moment, but long story short, here's the equation:

(Distance per stroke) (rate)/ (time taken for each stroke) = Speed.


About 6 years ago in the OC6 world the Tahitians starting coming over to Hawaii and crushing us in the Molokai Hoe. So everyone tried to figure out what they were doing differently that made them go so fast. Quite a few people with crap critical thinking skills said "Aha! They are using a stroke rate in the 70's, and since most Hawaiian teams are using a rate in the 60's, therein lies the difference!"

The problem in that thinking is that they are focused on the rate, which is the one easily visible factor of the three parts of the equation.

RAB makes the point that if the boat speed is higher, perhaps because Distance per stoke (efficiency) or power ( time per stroke) has been maximized, the rate will increase as a function of speed unless you increase the time spent in recovery period per stroke.

Everyone large or small will benefit from increased distance per stroke. The next part of the equation to focus on might depend on the type of athlete. Large strong guys will have an easier time increasing their power, so they spend less time covering the same distance per stroke. Smaller guys might have an easier time upping the tempo by decreasing the time spent in recovery.

Ah, you're all just a bunch of wankers! (just kidding... had to repeat that bit of history... kinda funny in a detached, demented way, you know ).

My friend Franklin and I were discussing that thread while paddling last night on the Albemarle Sound, full moon and all. He slapped the water and yelled in frustration... his rather perfect form being not-so-perfect at the moment (really, he does have great form). I yelled "You Wanker! Hahahaha!"(quite in jest while trailing his wake). He kinda chuckled, but I knew he thought it was a bit out of taste.

Anyway, we both, I believe, have the OPINION that it is both form and high stroke rate that gets the boat out of it's hole. If a paddler is applying nearly continuous power (high stroke rate) to the water, he/she will have better boat speed than when applying more power followed by a longer recovery period. Also, a long stroke length (measured in relation to the paddler, not the static water) will only create a condition in which the boat is experiencing both pitching and yawing moments (more induced drag) far in excess of that of a shorter stroke length. In order for the longer stroke's average power to equal the shorter stroke's power deliverance, muscles will be required to exert higher contraction forces, thereby placing the paddler closer to his AT sooner, and creating a condition in which lactic acid accumulates more readily. But really, I suppose this all depends on the body type of the paddler.

Form is very important in order to get the blade into the water as close to the boat as possible, and as vertical as possible. Then, tracking the blade with the most desirable attitude and angle of attack as possible. And do all this while keeping your stroke rate up and battling waves. My experience has suggested that very good form is required to do this properly and efficiently.
I am only writing from my own experience in many kinds of weather and racing conditions, and have been continuously concentrating heavily on both good form and high stroke rates. Though, somehow that sustained 13 km/h is quite elusive around here in the shallow waters of the OBX!
-Doug

Can't let the new boat slip through to the keeper and in the interests of not hijacking the thread below thought I would post it here.....only because in the 47 pages of posts I couldn't find the boat thread.
CONGRATULATIONS!
Interesting choice. Probably a good choice for where you live and paddle. The v12 is a Jekyll and Hyde boat. Great in the flat and a nightmare in short sharp side shore chop. Easy to remount, which is good, cos most folks who buy them fall off a lot.
Interesting that you find it has less flex, considering previous comments.
I can only assume you haven't announced the change of boats cos you were worried the media coverage generated may steal some of the thunder from the Olympics. Well the cats out of the bag.

Yes, we can all sit back and focus on London now. What a relief. But.... Sounds like RAB bought TWO epics. Is that two v12s or some other combo? The v12 ultra is indeed an interesting ski. I paddled one for over a year and initially loved it, then gradually grew to completely despise the bloody thing. RAB please keep us posted on how you get along over time, though your first impressions did not mirror my long term impressions if I recall one of our previous conversations correctly, so hopefully you will enjoy it long term. Guess thats why there are a variety of skis out there, everyone's a bit different. Enjoy the new ski (er, skis) sir!

I too thought I must have missed an announcement somewhere on buying a new ( or two) ski's

Seems the market for the V12 has reached saturation point as a distributor was selling two of them at a huge discount earlier this year and near new second hand ones were being advertised at over $1000 below cost around the same time. There are some great deals on geartrade. Pitty you didn't have access to the ones here in WA.

I put the second hand ones down to those buyers wanting the best and latest ski then discovering they couldn't paddle them efficiently (read falling off) in the short multi-direction chop at the start of the big races we get here.

Would love to be able to afford both a racing and training ski or a flat water and downwind ski

Enjoy the new ski(s)!? and look forward to hearing more about how you grow into the V12!