Controversial opinion

9 years 8 months ago #10962 by owenfromwales
Hey RAB,
Listening to your leash woes, I was wondering if you could attach it to your PFD instead, that way it would be more out of the way and not so restrictive when you do take a dip.
Glad to hear you swapped out the dodgy clip. I bought a great leash from a well-known manufacturer, but unfortunately the clip was prone to rust. No worries though, I got a much better stainless clip from a local chandlers.
I was wondering one thing though, do you have a coiled or a straight leash?
As to your original question - I think it all comes down to what level of risk we want to take. Last week in Wales a young boy unfortunately died when playing football (soccer) when the bar of the goal fell and landed on his head.
One answer could be to mandate everyone to wear a helmet in future, but it`s worth remembering that there is no rule banning the use of helmets (just so long as they are in club colours - and I think that rule is still on the books for Surf Lifesaving GB because they used to be mandatory for all craft events 25 years ago.)

189cm 90~100kg
Present skis:
2017 Stellar SEI 2G
1993 Gaisford Spec Ski
1980s Pratt Spec Ski
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor
Previous
1980s UK Surf Skis Ocean Razor X 3
1987 Kevlar Chalupsky (Hummel) (Welsh copy!)
1988 Kevlar Double Chalupsky
1992 Hammerhead spec
2000 Fenn copy

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9 years 8 months ago #10963 by Hiro
Attachments:

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9 years 8 months ago #10965 by DougMar
Replied by DougMar on topic Re: Controversial opinion
Thanks, ccc. Though, I think the USCG cert'd pfd's are way too buoyant and bulky (for me). Damn the SA government for f-ing up Mocke's superior product's distribution and sales.

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9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #10966 by DougMar
Replied by DougMar on topic Re: Controversial opinion
Why are so many of us so willing to have knee-jerk-reaction mandates forced upon us all?!?!? When in the pursuit of high-energy sports, there is always the specter of injury or worse. But as responsible athletes, we must choose for ourselves what we will do or not do to preserve ourselves. By encouraging mandates, you are encouraging governments and governing bodies to take more control of our lives than they already have. I love choice. I savor the ability to make my own decisions regarding my safety, my livelihood, and my healthcare should I need it. The more mandates, the less we are free men. Accidents will always happen, no matter how well a person is protected. The best protection is the judgment, skill, and quick reaction that originate between a persons ears.
A small case in point: The damned U.S. Fed seat-belt law… before it was MANDATED, I always wore my seat-belt. After the mandate, I thumb my nose, and routinely leave it unused. Damn the bureaucrats and insurance lobbyists! (most probably not in my best interest, but I feel good about it all the same!)
So I beg of you, before you use the word MANDATE, think about all the freedoms that you will likely lose control of, over time, as more and more of our activities in our lives are controlled by someone else that has very limited views of our lives and goals. Unless, that is, you like sitting on your couch, being a mere spectator of freedom.

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9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #10970 by Kayaker Greg





www.fitnesslifestyle.com.au/fl_ocean/xm-...-and-body-leash.html


Please replace that biner, they will take almost no load at all to rip the gate out and should not be used in such an application. Surely thats not what it is sold with?
Well I just followed the link to purchase and indeed that is what it is sold with. I can't believe it. I've had so many of those fail in non life threatening light load applications, like for fishing lines etc.

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9 years 8 months ago #10971 by Boof Head
Replied by Boof Head on topic Re: Controversial opinion

Why are so many of us so willing to have knee-jerk-reaction mandates forced upon us all?!?!? When in the pursuit of high-energy sports, there is always the specter of injury or worse. But as responsible athletes, we must choose for ourselves what we will do or not do to preserve ourselves. By encouraging mandates, you are encouraging governments and governing bodies to take more control of our lives than they already have. I love choice. I savor the ability to make my own decisions regarding my safety, my livelihood, and my healthcare should I need it. The more mandates, the less we are free men. Accidents will always happen, no matter how well a person is protected. The best protection is the judgment, skill, and quick reaction that originate between a persons ears.
A small case in point: The damned U.S. Fed seat-belt law… before it was MANDATED, I always wore my seat-belt. After the mandate, I thumb my nose, and routinely leave it unused. Damn the bureaucrats and insurance lobbyists! (most probably not in my best interest, but I feel good about it all the same!)
So I beg of you, before you use the word MANDATE, think about all the freedoms that you will likely lose control of, over time, as more and more of our activities in our lives are controlled by someone else that has very limited views of our lives and goals. Unless, that is, you like sittin
g on your couch, being a mere spectator of freedom.


The original post made mention of mandated safety equipment for under 18's only. As adults we have a responsabilty to protect our young. A child does not have the spatial awareness of an adult, nor the body strength. A childs brain is is still developing and cannot sustain the knocks that an adiults can.
The young competetors don't do the risk assessment. they rely on others to make decisons for them.
To not do everything possible to protect children in dangerous situations is ridiculous. I definitely don't wrap my kids in cotton wool but I insist that they wear helmets playing rugby, helmet when skiing, helmet out terrorising the locals on their skateboards, and headgear when boxing.

I generally don't wear a pfd but there is no way I would let my kids or any others that I was responsible for out on the water without one and with kids present, I would wear one also.

My point is, events organisers have a responsibilty to make events as safe as possible ffor young competitors just as any adult is responsible for the safety of children they are supervising
The following user(s) said Thank You: Hiro

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9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #10972 by superted
Replied by superted on topic Re: Controversial opinion

The original post made mention of mandated safety equipment for under 18's only. As adults we have a responsabilty to protect our young. A child does not have the spatial awareness of an adult, nor the body strength. A childs brain is is still developing and cannot sustain the knocks that an adiults can.
The young competetors don't do the risk assessment. they rely on others to make decisons for them.
To not do everything possible to protect children in dangerous situations is ridiculous. I definitely don't wrap my kids in cotton wool but I insist that they wear helmets playing rugby, helmet when skiing, helmet out terrorising the locals on their skateboards, and headgear when boxing.

I generally don't wear a pfd but there is no way I would let my kids or any others that I was responsible for out on the water without one and with kids present, I would wear one also.

My point is, events organisers have a responsibilty to make events as safe as possible ffor young competitors just as any adult is responsible for the safety of children they are supervising

= duty of care

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9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #10974 by Boof Head
Replied by Boof Head on topic Re: Controversial opinion
Exactly. I wouldn't feel to sorry for somebody who gets shredded to bits as they fly through a windscreen because they are making a point. traumatic for the cleanup crew for sure but
At the end of the day, if somebody chooses to defy a law supported by statsitical evidence and has the best intentions for peoples safety then so be it. A decision made by an informed adult. Worst case scenario - horrible mangled death, best case scenario - a traffic violation fine from time to time.
THe above doesn't hurt anybody much except the decision maker.

However, making the same decision for a child is gross negligence and deserving of a good smack over the back of the head.

Apologies for spelling and grammar. Combination of touchscreen, fat fingers and general apathy towards correcting mistakes.

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9 years 8 months ago #10976 by DougMar
Replied by DougMar on topic Re: Controversial opinion
Boof: I can understand race organizers having race rules and requirements for competitors. I do not believe governments (i.e. mandates) should be looking out for our young... that is our job. The more responsibility you give the governments to protect you and your children, the more they will take those responsibilities and choices away from you. You state that you insist that your children wear protective equipment in contact sports. Then why do you believe that there is a need for mandates for these things? People make bad decisions every day. These can be harsh but necessary reminders for all of us to practice good judgment, young and old. Do you really want some stodgy, cigar smoking bunch of bureaucrats to be telling you what you and your family cannot do, or how to live your lives? Maybe your countrymen have not felt the need to fight for their freedom for a very long time, if ever. Mine have. I do not take my freedoms lightly or for granted. So many before me have died for our freedom, so I believe that freedom is indeed more valuable and costly than one or two lives. It is sad that a child suffered a head trauma in a freak accident. It would be sadder if everyone accepted some government’s ruling that was a reaction to this event, and that ruling set a precedent that enabled more and more restrictive laws that eventually reduced everyone’s liberty in all aspects of life.
I believe many have become so concerned about personal safety that their idea of freedom is so strife with regulation that they do not know what freedom really is. Nor could they have freedom because sooner or later they would blame everybody else for their own failings. E.i., protecting and teaching their own young.

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9 years 8 months ago #10977 by JML
Replied by JML on topic Re: Controversial opinion
They are actually not sold with the light aluminium clip. That is how they came from the manufacturers. It is an older photo. They are actually all replaced with cord that can then be threaded through the leash attachment points now available on most newer skis.

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9 years 8 months ago #10981 by Marieski
Replied by Marieski on topic Re: Controversial opinion
If the state is required to provide rescue services and then potentially lifelong care for you or your brain or otherwise injured child, then it might reasonably be expected to mandate some safety precautions.

Unfortunately, a document absolving the state of any such responsibility in the event of you not taking these precautions is not legal.

However, I encourage freedom loving individuals to ring the rescue services and public hospitals in the event of an accident to their child resulting from lack of safety measures to tell them their services are not required.

Past skis: Spirit PRS, EpicV10Sport Performance, Epic V10 Elite, Stellar SES Advantage. Current skis: Fenn Elite Spark, Fenn Swordfish vacuum. Custom Horizon, Epic V7
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9 years 8 months ago #10991 by Watto
Replied by Watto on topic Re: Controversial opinion
Read www.ratherbepaddling.com.au/node/795.

I was out on the Swan River same day as above and it was howling here in Perth a very strong fresh sea breeze - not a storm just a blowy day. It was a handful in the river when I ditched a few times demo-ing an SES, complete with leashed pfd etc. (was me not the boat btw, and I loved it - can't wait for the new bride in latest shipment to be unloaded) . Yup, got twisted up underwater etc but hey, soon learned how to get back in, what not to do. Off the coast I would have been toast, or at least without a boat. Have swum solo to Rottnest (20km) a couple of times so the swim not a problem and if I really had to, could have ditched the pfd and cruised ashore sans boat. But hey, push comes to shove, without all the safety bits and pieces your options are either a shorter life or a beat up / no boat.

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9 years 8 months ago - 9 years 8 months ago #10992 by DougMar
Replied by DougMar on topic Re: Controversial opinion
I suppose when one is accustomed to state sponsored health care, state sponsored hospitals, state sponsored child care, state sponsored shelter, state sponsored food supply, state sponsored ad nauseum, then state enforced mandates seem the logical choice for those who would allow their governments to control most every aspect of their lives. It is sad that in those places, the males appear to have the insecurity and weakness attributes of females rather than men who maintain control of their own lives.

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9 years 8 months ago #10993 by Watto
Replied by Watto on topic Re: Controversial opinion
"It is sad that in those places, the males appear to take on the attributes of females rather than men who maintain control of their own lives."

A witty riposte lost on me because I'm not very clever. Unsure in my post where I relinquished control of my life however time to put the nightie on and get to bed as good wife tells me I need an early paddle in the morn .

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9 years 8 months ago #10994 by Sandy
Replied by Sandy on topic Re: Controversial opinion
Wow Doug, way to tell us how you really feel ! , do you really think this the place for such a sexist comment ? I dunno bout anyone else but I find it offensive.

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9 years 8 months ago #10996 by semdoug
Replied by semdoug on topic Re: Controversial opinion
It is a shame that this thread started out as a valid point about safety during competetion and paddling and has now turned into nonsensical extreme right-wing, Rush, Glenn Beck, Faux News rhetoric. Doug at SageKayak.com should take this Randian spew elsewhere. THIS IS NOT THE PLACE and I agree with Sandy!!!

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9 years 8 months ago #10998 by Rightarmbad
I think you will find 'nanny state' is in similar vein.
It's not sexist, just a means of communicating what he feels by using terms and references that most people understand.

Interesting that this thread went 3 pages before the original post was addressed.
And then soon went it's own way again.


So what do people think?

Would a specifically designed head gear for under 18's in mass participant surf races where solid boards/skis are involved be a heresy, or just maybe a lifesaver?

Forget leashes, jackets, flares and every other sidetrack under the sun.
Would it not be prudent to protect juniors, in races with hard things flying around, and a bunch of kids that are thinking of only winning, not protecting the one beside them, from a costly whack on the head?

A whack on the head is about the only thing that can go wrong in one of these events, everything else plays out slowly or has non serious outcomes.

This is nothing to do with government rulings, your grandma or sexist fishermen, just a specific situation that has already proven fatal three times, and a simple specific solution to the problem.



I suppose losing a few juniors here and there won't affect the population too much.....

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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9 years 7 months ago #11000 by DougMar
Replied by DougMar on topic Re: Controversial opinion
RAB, good points... I believe that if a race, or competitive event organizer deems that helmets should be a required part of the gear for the event, then the participants have a choice of using that gear in the competition, or not competing. If there truly is an outcry for more safety equipment, race participants usually will voice their opinions quite loudly to the event organizer. I have raised issues to a few race organizers, and received reasonable responses and/or seen modifications to the competition in those areas. I believe it is we the individuals that need to be responsible for our own safety rather than allow an all-governing body to make those decisions for us.

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9 years 7 months ago - 9 years 7 months ago #11011 by SAWHITE
Replied by SAWHITE on topic Re: Controversial opinion
As a person who lives in both worlds I think I should comment.

I am a current patrolling lifeguard and trainer of junior members (nippers) as we call them.
I also compete in surf carnivals such as the Aussie titles and also in ocean paddling.
I have listened to an amazing amount of media comment in the last week from most people who have NEVER even paddled a board or been out in surf.
To the people that say that a 15 yr old kid shouldn't go out in the 1 - 1.2 m surf on that day is ill informed. This was a top end competitor. He had been selected in a future champion squad. I have raced against some 15 yr olds and they are fit and fast. No question!!!
At 15 you do the test for your Bronze medallion that qualifies you as a full lifeguard. Should we therefore close the beach when it gets over 1.5m? What would be the legal issues if we were to open the beach to swimmers if as lifeguards we wont compete in that level of surf.

RABs topic of helmets is complex. Any hard helmet will create risk to others as it becomes an impact risk the same as the board. A soft helmet such as used in rugby would be more beneficial for junior competitors. It would help reduce the impact risk to hard boards. Remember that juniors up to 10yrs compete on soft 'Foam' boards due to the risk of impact.

My best friend was killed climbing because he hit his head and was NOT wearing a helmet so I am VERY cautious about head injuries. I have 6 different helmets for different sports I play, however I would not wear a helmet whilst competing in a surf carnival unless it met some stringent conditions such as not impeding vision, light weight and comfortable. AND only in craft events. Not swimming.

As lifeguards it is not a natural thing for us to wear certain safety equipment. PFDs are a nuisance in the surf zone as you cannot get under the waves where it is safest. The strangest thing I had to get used to in Ocean paddling was wearing a PFD. I like the leash as it makes sense but hate wearing a PFD although I do wear one in big surf well out to sea.

PFDs in craft events such as boards wont work either as part of getting out through surf you have to sometimes roll the board and drag the nose down under the surf to 'duck dive' the wave. Any bouyancy you wear will stop that from happening and keep you in the heavy wash zone. This would be more dangerous as it would lead to more boards being ripped out of competitors hands and potentially hitting others. If you keep adding protective equipment you would end up looking like an American football player.

The people who run the Aussie titles are not to blame. The amount of water safety in place is extrodinary. I was at a junior carnival this year as water safety where at one point I counted;
* 5 safety swimmers,
* 4 Board paddlers
* 2 Inshore rescue boats with 2 crew in each.
* 1 rescue jetski.

This was for only 15 competitors in the water. Thats almost 1:1

In the end as an official you have to assume that any competitor that lines up is capable of completing the course. Its the same as any sport where the official has to assume that coaches, parents etc have taught the player to;
* Pack a scrum
* Swim the 800m of the course
* Do the double sommersault off the 3 meter spring board.

You get my point!!

This was a tragic event but the beach, officials and carnival itself are not to blame. NO ONE IS!!!!!

My two cents.

Shanan

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9 years 7 months ago - 9 years 7 months ago #11013 by Rightarmbad
I'm not laying blame.

I'm just wondering if a simple lightweight, low profile foam helmet/ soft material like an old type bike head gear, may save lives without any impact on the activities of the events involving hard water craft in question.

I want to know why there would be resistance to this when there was none really to speak of to wearing a leash on open water surf skis, when there has been no documented deaths during a race from not wearing one.

So move on from laying blame.





I know from my own experience, that a radically stripped down foam bike helmet with a camera on it, doesn't compromise my ability to duck under a wave.( a full normal bike helmet does though, plus they are bloody hot at surfski speeds.)

It certainly would slow me down in swimming with my head down, but causes no drama with a heads up swim.
And anyways, I'm not advocating it for use in swimming events, just hard vessel related ones.

The question is, can it be done better?
If it can be, why resist it?



I have not yet seen a reply with any reason not to wear one, other than grandma taunts.

Follow the path of the independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that are important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.--- Thomas J. Watson

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