Is it me or the Boat- Epic V10 Sport

3 years 5 months ago #31655 by Gooch
I did a lot of research prior to buying my first ski. I have paddled for over 20 years, I also knew going in, that any ski can take 6-10 hours on the water before you start to get comfortable. I have read and watched every instructional tutorial there is, it is not working.

I am starting to question my purchase. I have a 2006 (I believe Gen1) Epic V10 sport. All indications were that the V10 sport was the right balance for me. The guy I bought it from was selling it and keeping his V8 because he said he could never feel comfortable in this boat. Again, most indications were that the V8 and the V10 Sport has similar stability.

It has very good secondary stability, I have actually not dumped out of it yet in about 10 hours. But I always feel like I am going to go over. As if I was sitting on a telephone pole in the water. Do I just need more time, or was there something about the early generations of Epic V10 that has been changed in the later models and I missed that tidbit of information in my research.

I can hold 5.2-5.4 MPH average pace in my sea kayak (mostly flat water) and struggle to hold 4.6 in the V10 because stability is keeping my stroke inconsistent. Should I sell this thing or is it going to get better?

Any and all input is appreciated.

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3 years 5 months ago #31684 by zachhandler
The only consistent critique I hear of the 1st gen v10 sport is that it has a wide bucket that may need to be padded in from the sides. I have paddled that ski and to me it feels very stable, but then I am used to tippier skis.

If this is your 1st ski after 20 year in a sea kayak I would give it more time. In a kayak you can control the boat roll with your thighs but in a ski you have nothing but “brain balance”. It is very different.

If there is another intermediate ski around you could try it and help decide it is is the ski or the skier that is the problem. Is it possible that there is something spooky or defective in your personal v10sport? I don’t see how that would happen but I suppose anything is possible.

Current Skis: Kai Wa’a Vega, Nelo 550L g2, Epic V12 g2, Carbonology Feather, Think Jet, Knysna Sonic X

Former Skis: Epic V12 g2, Epic V12 g1, Epic v10 double, Fenn Elite S, Custom Kayaks Synergy

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3 years 5 months ago #31687 by rhainan
I'm not sure what led you to think that the V8 and V10S would have similar stability. It can be a pretty big jump for most people. On the other hand, a few people have no issues at all. My friend insisted, against my objections, on making the V10S his very first boat instead of the V8. He fell in once and was fine thereafter. I, however, had a different experience:

I paddled a gen 1 V8 for a year and was certain that I was ready for the next logical step (at the time). I bought a second hand gen 1 V10S and quickly found out I was not as gifted as I thought I was. I was so uncomfortable and unstable I went right back to the V8 and traded away the used V10S. I was just not patient enough to get over the hump.

Another year later I tried again on a gen 2 V10S and this time it stuck. Maybe the gen 2 is more stable or maybe the extra year paddling the V8 just made me more comfortable. Now I am in a V10L and working my way up the ladder. Have patience.

Western Pennsylvania Epic Kayak Dealer

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3 years 5 months ago #31688 by Fath2o
I would suggest attending a paddle clinic or equivalent. Only paddle in flat water, fresh water preferable. Give it time. I have paddled old V10s and did not perceive any problems with it.

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3 years 5 months ago #31695 by leolinha
I started with a V8, paddled it for 3 years. Then I moved to a gen2 V10 Sport after I got some coaching. I borrowed a V10S ultra from the coach and paddled it only on flatwater. I noticed the superior performance of the V10S against the V8, and was surprised by its stability, since it felt almost as stable as my V8. Then I bought a brand new V10S, elite construction.
On my first day paddling my V10S on the sea (3 feet waves, 5-10 knots of wind), I was really took by surprise by its lack of stability. I felt in three times and wobbled a lot. It took me months to get reasonably comfortable on it.
My conclusion is, confirming what I had read elsewhere: you may try a demo ski on flatwater, but you will never properly assess its stability unless you take it to the sea. On flatwater the V10S felt quite like my V8 for 80% of the time, but on waves the story is completely different.

Current: Epic V8 PRO, Think Evo 3
Past: Epic V8, Epic V10 Sport

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3 years 5 months ago #31702 by Dicko
In 2006 the v10 sport was a beginners boat. However it probably falls closer to most of the intermediate boats on the market today. The seats on some were bloody wide and this doesn't help stability at all. They also had a tendency to wander all over the ocean. You could try a larger rudder, maybe a DK and this will improve the primary stability a lot. You do get use to a bigger seat, but a bit of padding on the hips never hurts when starting out.

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3 years 5 months ago #31706 by Gooch
Thank you for the responses so far, I did add hip pads to tighten the cockpit and it is getting a little better (slowly). Only flat water paddling at this time.

I did get 3 rudders with the boat and I have the middle sized one on it now, but this is a much larger rudder option that I thought would only produce drag and was not necessary in flat water.

Is there really a stability advantage to a larger rudder in flat water?????

Side note: I actually feel the least stable on a turn and it turns very quickly so most of the time I keep the rudder straight and control my direction with my stroke, only foot steer at low speed

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3 years 5 months ago #31707 by robin.mousley
Not sure about larger rudder = stability, makes sense though. I mostly paddle downwind so I haven't used anything but a big surf rudder for the longest time.

But... picking up on your comment about feeling unstable on turns, how have you rigged your rudder pedals? I remember having mine angled back some years ago and saw that one of the elite guys had his pedals rigged so that they were at the same angle as the footplate and he explained to me that it was better to have them that way to prevent your foot from pumping the rudder as you rotate in the stroke.

And it definitely sensitises the steering. So if you haven't already, I'd adjust the pedals so that they're straight, not angled back.

Have a great paddling weekend!

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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3 years 5 months ago #31714 by Dasher
A year ago I was trying to decide if I was ready to upgrade to the V10 Sport from my V7. I paddle almost all flat water. After a kayak triathlon I tried a Gen 1 V10 Sport and felt somewhat tippy in it. I felt that with some time I could eventually get stable in it. But I was really looking for the Gen 2 V10 Sport. I found one and purchased it. I was a little hesitant the first time I took it out. Was I really surprised at how stable it was. The initial stability was great. I felt fine it it. I set a personal best for my 3 mile time trial. 2 days later I took it out again and beat my best time, with the V7, by 1 and a half minutes for the 3 mile time trial. This was the first time that I had ever broken the 30 minute barrier. I think the initial stability is better in the Gen 2. Also the hump is lower in the Gen 2 and you will have better leg drive. I use a 4 inch weedless rudder on mine. I tried a little bit longer rudder on it. It was a little bit more stable and it turned really fast. I think if you put your longest rudder on it that it would improve the stability and allow you to apply more power. I would also recommend a wing paddle, if you don't currently use one. I think they also help with the stability. I hope this helps.

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3 years 5 months ago #31716 by eh.haole
My background is a bit like yours, lots of sea kayaking and whitewater. The power stroke for those boats, with substantial secondary resistance you can really drive off of that, whereas in the skis, there is not much there to push or roll against (i.e. sideways) for power, and you do indeed need to get used to that "log" feeling. There is a bit of secondary stability in the intermediate skis, just enough, but you can easily overwhelm what's available.

Despite that, you do need to go out and start to figure out exactly where those stability points are and how to work with them. I think what you want to discover is a "quiet core" where the twitch goes away. This is especially true for the superlight skis, they will twitch and roll around like crazy until you find that quiet core feel. Try it on a yoga ball or balance ball, same thing. Your reflexes will learn to smooth things out like a low-pass filter

Also definitely don't be afraid to push it and swim and remount, this is part of the sport and it pays to get good at that too before you end up in sketchy or dangerous conditions. Once you don't mind going over it's easier to experiment with how loose you can get!

Haolewaiian kook & part-time stability tester

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3 years 5 months ago #31717 by eh.haole
Oh ps. I have an SR and an Evo III, there is a 50% chance I'll go over whenever I go out on the Evo, mostly because I'm chasing waves and fighting strong and big cross-chop in an ocean-exposed area. Have fun be safe!

Haolewaiian kook & part-time stability tester

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3 years 5 months ago #31718 by wesley
Years ago I had the Ultra and Performance V10 sport 1G's and padded them out significantly. I found them the primary stability very twitchy and takes bucket time to overcome that feeling. I personally would suggest movng it along and get an updated design from any of the brands. Getting a deal on a late model ski often does not work out. The 2G Sport is a far better ski than the 1G in all regards. 2G one of the most stable intermediate skis in a great line up of intermediate ski from all the brands.

Wesley Echols
SurfskiRacing.com
#1 in Surfski Reviews.

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3 years 5 months ago #31787 by Gooch
Ok a little update. First whomever said it was 6-8 hours to feel stability is full of it. I have 20 in and am just starting to improve. It has been a combination of gaining feel and improving stroke.

For any others out there switching from Sea Kayak I will say that the biggest issue is stroke length. I have 20 years of muscle memory with a really long stroke from a catch way out front all the way down the boat and behind me. This was the core of my issues and I did not realize it. Keeping the paddle in the water past the hips is a stability challenged individuals kryptonite. So that is getting better.

I have a race next weekend and I am thinking I will not bring the ski. My most recent realization is that I am a disaster for the first 15 minutes and then start to smooth out. The race is a Quadrathlon and the paddle is only 4 miles. But I think any performance gain would be ruined by the first 15 minutes of getting my ass squared away under me.

Wondering if anyone has any tips for starting out a little better. After 15 minutes it starts to come together but the first 15 feels like I have never been in a boat like this before.

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3 years 5 months ago #31788 by robin.mousley

Wondering if anyone has any tips for starting out a little better. After 15 minutes it starts to come together but the first 15 feels like I have never been in a boat like this before.


It's always a good thing to do a twenty minute warm-up before a race in any case. That gives you 15min to get it together and 5min to become superb before the race starts ;-)

Aside from that... time in the seat! I agree that I took much, much longer than 8 hours to start finding stability! In fact my first couple of racing seasons it was par for the course to fall out at least once during each race.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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