Why NOT a waist leash?

9 months 3 weeks ago #32980 by sski
Why NOT a waist leash? was created by sski
Still pretty new but have read some threads and tried out several combos.
What are disadvantages of waist leash? I love it.
Most seem to use leg leashes.
With waist leash, you can always attach a rear anchor point with marine cement if there is not a good factory site (chief negative i've heard). No/less entanglement, easy to get to rudder or around boat if needed, no mess down in footwell, no knee ligament/tendon injuries, you have extra bungee cord if needed (slightly facetious).

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9 months 3 weeks ago #32984 by robin.mousley
As I've said before - I use a belt/waist leash 100% of the time.

The only disadvantage is that sometimes on a long paddle I'll get some chaffing around my waist - which you wouldn't get with a leg leash... But I just need to remember to apply some vaseline for long paddles.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...
The following user(s) said Thank You: Karel

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9 months 3 weeks ago #32986 by fredrik
Replied by fredrik on topic Why NOT a waist leash?
I have just put a double loop with 4mm spectra string around the bottom web belt on my mocke pfd. the mesh is easy to tread through. That will be bomb strong and provides a clip point in front and, Rob, any chafing gone :-)

I have always wondered why the pfd doesnt come with a attachment loop on the pfd front. Maybe a certification issue (yet another thing to worry about for the maker)

I would love to hear if anyone has any realistic pitfall issues with that solution

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9 months 3 weeks ago #32987 by robin.mousley
YES!

Incorporate the belt into the PFD! Brilliant!

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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9 months 3 weeks ago #32988 by robin.mousley
Interesting...

I just discussed this with Dawid Mocke. He says that he designed and prototyped a PFD with integral belt leash attachment - but then it falls foul of regulations: it then becomes a different class of PFD and requires re-testing at a horrendous cost. BUT, even if he did submit the new design for testing, they wouldn't know how to test it because the existing class of PFD that has belt attachments requires floatation of 70N... PFDs have 50N.

So you can be:

- PFD of 50N without belts
- "Rescue" PFD with belts but with min floatation of 70N

There's no category for a 50N PFD with belts... bureaucracy at its finest.

I guess I'll have to modify my Mocke PFD myself!

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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9 months 3 weeks ago #32989 by fredrik
Replied by fredrik on topic Why NOT a waist leash?
yes, I imagined that - the good thing about the zipper free Mocke pfd is that there are no buckles as weak points and the web belt goes all the way around the torso (no seams/fabric as weak link either). You can very easily make a loop with a bombproof overhand/figure eight knot. Good quality 4mm dyneema string has a 2000 kg break load :-) , eg take a 10-15 cm of the a rudder line). Done in a couple of minutes.

Thanks for the super fast follow up, Rob,

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9 months 3 weeks ago #32990 by mamaru
Replied by mamaru on topic Why NOT a waist leash?
What about the possibility to throw off the leash in case of need?

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9 months 3 weeks ago #32991 by robin.mousley
"What about the possibility to throw off the leash in case of need?"

I have a quick release clip and will post a photo of it when this @#$%% forum software is fixed.

Rob

Currently Fenn Swordfish S, Epic V10 Double.
Previously: Think Evo II, Carbonology Zest, Fenn Swordfish, Epic V10, Fenn Elite, Red7 Surf70 Pro, Epic V10 Sport, Genius Blu, Kayak Centre Zeplin, Fenn Mako6, Custom Kayaks ICON, Brian's Kayaks Molokai, Brian's Kayaks Wedge and several others...

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9 months 3 weeks ago #32993 by Bill L
Replied by Bill L on topic Why NOT a waist leash?
After a few years of surf-skiing and occasionally reading of bad things happening, mostly on this site, I realized that getting separated from your ski in the ocean in big conditions was likely a prelude to death: quite frankly, no one is going to find you; all should come to grips with that. No hyperbole intended here, it was just that I noticed that every surf ski death I was aware of had some separation element associated with (or indeed was probably the cause of) the paddler’s death. I realized I needed to change my safety gear setup.

Anyway, what works for me:

I decided to go for the “body leash” concept. I stitch a stainless D-ring or triangle to each of my PFDs on the bottom front using high strength webbing and high strength 100% polyester sailmakers thread (I own a heavy duty sail-makers sewing machine, you probably could not use a regular sewing machine to do this).

I then use a (amazingly small) forged (a forged snap shackle will deform long before breaking) quick release shackle (Safe Working Load of 350 lbs, break strength of 880 lbs) attached to quality ¼” polyester (not nylon) shock cord (breaking strength of 225 lbs).

I then have a stainless carabiner (breaking strength of 220 lbs.) to connect it to the ski, usually at the center seat/well attachment point.

The shock cord is run through the fitting on both the snap shackle and carabiner, folded over, and crimped with three stainless hog rings, then taped with silicone and electrical tapes.

I have a background in engineering and set out to design it for at least a 200 lb. static load. While dynamic loads from dumping waves can easily exceed that, it is my contention that in those circumstances you would want the leash to break because getting hit by or tangled up with a ski in those conditions would be worse than getting separated. PLUS, on most skis, you would be hard pressed to find an attachment point that would hold up to anything greater than a 200 lb static load, and even that is being generous as it would likely rip out of the composite anyway (note to ski manufacturers, if you don’t already have a leash hardpoint designed into your skis, do it. Of my 5 skis (Think, Stellar, Epic, Fenn), I believe my Stellar SES has the “beefiest” leash attachment point).

The hardware I used is small and unobtrusive. One you learn the correct simple technique to remounting with it, tangling is not an issue (I also use it together with a separate, lighter duty, paddle leash).

So, I have been using this set up for about 6 years. I have had several times when I fell off the ski in reef areas (where the waves rear up) and the wave pushed the ski broadside away from me, a couple times with ~ 8-10 foot (2.5-3 m) waves on days where I was regularly hitting 13 -15 mph (21 - 25 kph) max speeds. The leash has never failed (I regularly replace the shock cord after ~ 200-250 hours of paddling, and/or after a particularly strong “pull event” (like I have described above). I of course disconnect in the shore break; the general consensus (and I agree with) is that it is dangerous to be attached to your ski in the shore break.

The link here shows some pictures (the black shrouds are neoprene and pull over the shackle and carabiner to prevent any scratching damage to the ski.)

drive.google.com/open?id=1ssVemt1UJFTg6hNlTgws0UnOJ1AaQSFq

And a thanks to Rob and all who contribute to these forums: I have learned so much from surfski.info over the years, especially about safety, particularly from reading and carefully dissecting the experiences of others.

The disclaimer: I designed this for myself, for my own use, consistent with the risks I am willing to take, my capabilities, and the conditions in which I use it. If you decide to copy it and use it, you could be seriously injured or killed.

Bill L
The following user(s) said Thank You: Korrigan

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9 months 3 weeks ago #33006 by tve
Replied by tve on topic Why NOT a waist leash?
Bill, how long is that shock cord, and is your attachment point approx between your ankles?

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9 months 3 weeks ago #33008 by Bill L
Replied by Bill L on topic Why NOT a waist leash?
The length overall, unstretched, from shackle end to carabiner end, is 48 inches, so, the shock cord is a few inches less.

The attachment point is generally between my calves/knees, except for my fenn spark, which does not have a leash attachment point so I made one that is on the footstrap.

The length is such that when I am in the water ready to remount, the cord is stretched and I can actually “feel” if it is in the right position. i.e., under the appropriate leg, in the correct position, and without having to look.

Bill L

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9 months 3 weeks ago #33010 by LaPerouseBay
Replied by LaPerouseBay on topic Why NOT a waist leash?

Bill L wrote:
I of course disconnect in the shore break; the general consensus (and I agree with) is that it is dangerous to be attached to your ski in the shore break.

Bill L


Nice leash Bill. Looks like a perfect setup for your conditions, the 6 years of use is the proof in the pudding. Looks strong as hell.

My setup differs in that I have nothing in the bucket and I can stay attached in shorebreak. I clip in on the sand, walk to the water and launch.
When landing on a crowded beach, (many tourists here are clueless) I will not take the risk of unclipping before climbing out of the boat. One slip and the boat could take out some kids.
This setup allows me to stay attached at all times in the water. I can walk all the way to the showers with the boat attached to me.
Works good in surf too, the boat windvanes in the white water if I decide to jump out rather than get tumbled in the wash. I've been bonked in the head in tumbling surf. Stitches from most recent episode coming out today! (minor, funny story actually) Boats in whitewater are crazy dangerous.

Cheers.

www.surfski.info/forum/17-equipment/1894...for-a-ski.html#28795

downwind dilettante

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9 months 3 weeks ago #33011 by sski
Replied by sski on topic Why NOT a waist leash?

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9 months 3 weeks ago #33014 by paddlepop
Replied by paddlepop on topic Why NOT a waist leash?
i've been using the same waist leash on my SUP for 2 years and on my V5 for 5 months and wouldn't go back to a calf or ankle one. it's simply an existing coiled leash where the ankle loop now has a length of seat belt webbing through it with long bits of velcro sewn either end. you just need a decent sewing machine (or a friend) to sew it up. Pete
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9 months 3 weeks ago #33015 by tve
Replied by tve on topic Why NOT a waist leash?
LaPerouseBay, what do you attach your leash to in the back of the boat? Does it have a rear handle or did you add something?

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9 months 3 weeks ago #33016 by paddlepop
Replied by paddlepop on topic Why NOT a waist leash?
as you can see in the 2nd photo above i was lucky to have a handle to attach the leash to. otherwise i'd epoxy on a couple of these pad eyes, link them with a loop of spectra/dyneema cord and attach the leash to that. there's actually some on my SUP in the 1st photo
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9 months 3 weeks ago #33022 by Bill L
Replied by Bill L on topic Why NOT a waist leash?
All good body leash ideas. For coming thru the surf with people around, I guess I would likely use some sort setup as LaPerouseBay does; unless, perhaps, if I was trying persuade the tourists NOT to come back :) .

I am lucky enough to have several places where I can get into/out of the ocean without going thru the shorebreak.

Per paddlepop's post, I have considered using those spectra pad eyes in the past. They seem great in that they allow an attachment point anywhere on the ski. My only concern ( I have no experience or data on this, just wondering) is if with a really hard "yank" on the leash, whether the part of the hull where the pad eye is attached would give way.

I know the pad eye itself and the spectra are really strong, and there are enough great adhesives that would not fail, but, I wonder if the gelcoat or whatever the top layer on the ski would pull away. But, then again, maybe there is no place on a ski that would not fail, regardless of how it is attached - the surfski itself ends up being the "weak link" with any leash setup.

Bill L

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9 months 3 weeks ago #33027 by paddlepop
Replied by paddlepop on topic Why NOT a waist leash?
good point Bill and maybe there is a remote possibility of gel coat separation. but normally in a wipeout your body is being dragged through the water at the same speed as the ski so there's no real hard 'yank' happening. plus the elasticity of the long SUP leash helps slow the forces down.
Pete

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9 months 3 weeks ago #33029 by Wombat661
Replied by Wombat661 on topic Why NOT a waist leash?
I was afraid one might fail, so I used two NSI rubber plate with a load spreader line. Force should be evenly distributed between the plates. The knots were big enough that in case one fails, the other still holds the leash.
Rubber plate might conform better to a curved surface than a rigid mount. However, on a flat surface, rigid mount would be stronger...
One time in the surf, the waist strap actually tore off the velcro connection, and the mounts were fine.
Lesson learned from me was to put the anchor in front of the boat instead of the back so the boat can weather vane into the wave.
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9 months 2 weeks ago #33045 by Karel
Replied by Karel on topic Why NOT a waist leash?
This is an interesting discussion. I use a leg leach but must admit that a waist leash looks interesting.

I can however imagine that a waist leash can entangle your leg while doing a side re-entry. Is that correct? Can waist leashes only be used with a cowboy re-entry and not with a side re-entry?

Thanks!

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